Nukemzzz

It seems to me that foreflight should be asking for desired IAS in these profiles, and then based on the chosen altitude and atmosphere conditions for the trip, calculate TAS for the trip. Things seem backwards in the app to me. Of course I could just be confused. That’s why I’m asking.

Thanks for the reply. The POH says 183-187 mph which I’ve converted to knots. The reason 165knots (and 187mph) sounds high is because this is TAS at 7,500 MSL. Indicated airspeed will be 15% less than actual at 7,500 ft on a standard day if I understand things correctly. This means the gage will read 143knots when TAS is 183-187mph. Foreflight is asking for TAS and not IAS but doesn’t mention altitude. Confused...

See the attached picture of the foreflight performance section for a trip I’m planning. My question is: why foreflight isn’t specifying an altitude when asking for TAS. This performance section is independent of any trip. It’s a “profile” of the plane. For now I‘ve entered values from the 7’500 MSL table for 2500/23. I fully understand that these are estimates. However, it’s bad practice to start off entering numbers that don’t seem to be right.

I’m new to this and I’m confused by this topic and how it is used in ForeFlight. Everyone is reporting one number (Knots) for cruise and I think they are referring to the gage reading when OP needs TAS. The Mooney POH displays TAS vs altitude on a standard day, and ForeFlight doesn’t give a reference altitude so I don’t know which to pick. . I’ve searched the whole internet on this topic and there seems to be a lot of confusion. For cruise in the M20e in foreflight I’m using 165 knots TAS @ 10.8gph at 2500/23 which I pulled from the 7,500 ft performance chart since I think I’ll usually be around that altitude when on cross country and I’m at full throttle because I don’t see the point of going slower to reduce gph only to be in the air longer and end up burning nearly the same amount of fuel to the destination while losing my time and engine time but this part is a personal preference clearly. Am I doing this wrong? What number is foreflight looking for here? It’s asking for a number that depends on the environmental conditions and altitude and so it doesn’t add up. Are they just trying to sell me the performance plan that does adjust for altitude?

Bingo, well stated...

Some interesting suggestions in here. I mean who wouldn’t want free access to a sweet vintage Mooney while the owner works on his license? The current insurance doesn’t cover him because he doesn’t have 15hrs PIC in an M20e and doubtful he has 100hrs retractable (open pilot clause). But maybe I can get him added as a primary pilot with his qualifications. Not sure. Really the insurance is the biggest confusion for me in all of this and I have low patience for such things. Lol

Ok... so I've learned a lot about my situation and starting off as a pilot and trying to buy an airplane in a very short amount of time. Some things you should understand about my personality... when I decided to do something I GO and it's hard to stop me. I'm very decisive and then relentless about getting to where I decided to go. Anything that gets in my way I perceive subconsciously as a challenge to overcome. Serves me well in many things, however, it seems in this area there are many systems in place to protect me (and others) from this behavioral trait. This all started for me about 3 weeks ago (yes weeks). There are some personal reasons that have me highly motivated to get and learn in this plane, primarily the fact that I'm trying to help my sister out of a very bad situation and I'm trying to be a good brother. This plane is really the only asset that she has from a nasty divorce and it has cost her $8k just to get it airworthy again for various reasons that I won't get in to. She doesn't want to fly anymore and I wanted the maintenance and upkeep of the plane to be my problem and not hers with the benefit of getting my license and her having her asset as cash in hand instead of her having to go through the trouble of trying to sell it on the market. Another aspect is I have a friend that is a CFI and so I was inclined to use an instructor that I know over a stranger... even if he isn't a Mooney expert. So I thought about it and made the decision that I'm going to buy this plane so it's not her problem anymore with the desire to help her and to keep this historic bird in the air while finally getting my license, using a friend to teach me. Side note: my late grandfather and personal hero loved Mooneys. In 3 weeks: convinced my wife that getting to Florida for Christmas each year in 3.5hrs instead of 11 is awesome; I read countless articles on the plane; watch videos on it and the history; learned about how the approach speed is key to getting this bird to sit down, and how the short gear causes high ground effect; how the “shotgun“ gage arrangement takes getting used to; read about the M20 model variations and about the known issues and maintenance issues (ex: Fuel Tank Seals); learned how the constant speed prop functioned mechanically (really cool old tech); went to Florida and hired an instructor to take me up so I could fly it around (I knew more about some aspects of the plane then him because of my research...I had to work the landing gear) and logged 0.9hr of dual in the plane,; read all of the log-books on the plane and took notes on the history (it's not perfect); met with the current mechanic for the plane and asked a lot of questions; worked a deal to get the plane transported to Indiana with a plan to get it up here over Christmas break; called all my local airports to locate a hanger (not easy to find); purchased the Sporty's Pilot training and have made it about half way through the online programs so i could clear the written ASAP; and then started checking on my own insurance for the plane.... roadblock...hard stop (Then came my OP above) Now I've learned some new things that are in my way of reaching my goal (in a hurry) and I'm going to have to slow down it seems: I decided based on our conversation above that I should train first in a trainer and slow down on getting the Mooney up here. Seems the only way to do this in my town is at the local flight school in their planes and with their instructors. Not so easy to do with my CFI friend as there are no planes to rent for this purpose. So that part of my plan is maybe foiled. I need to get a medical cert of course... and want to do it right away in case there is an issue. I though my physician would just inspect my seals and gaskets and make sure I'm not going to die in the next 2yrs of natural causes and sign something. Turns out there is only one doctor that can do this in my city and there is significant paperwork and such that goes along with that. IE: Bigger deal that i thought. My desire is to break a Guiness Book World record on getting my license and a plane... but it seems that it's time to "slow my roll". I had a blind spot on the non-technical challenges and barriers in this hobby. This isn't going to happen fast. I need to chill and take it easy. Thanks again for the feedback and advice. Perhaps now you better understand now the background behind some of my crazy notions...

I’ve actually been reading these forums for some weeks learning about the model and the ins and outs of the hobby and I was under the impression that many have trained in vintage Mooneys with no issue (though many strongly disagreed with the idea) and the reports of insurance costs seemed reasonable. As stated above by others, I think something has changed recently. I’m curious if my age is a factor. Learning to fly, like most things, is easier when you are younger. 42 might be in a high risk class for a student.

First, thanks for all the great and informative responses. I clearly do have some more thinking to do on this subject. And this discussion has helped a lot. I’ve been influenced by a father that has always had a plane but honestly I don’t know how he afforded it, and other pilots that have told me that if I think of the finance aspects I won’t do it...so just go for it. I’m going to ignore most of the rude comments that are passing judgement on my character and intelligence. You don’t know me. I’m outwardly light hearted, and I joke a lot, but in my head it’s a totally different story. Don’t get me wrong, I believe that getting my PPL is likely to be one the biggest challenges I’ve faced. I lose sleep wondering if I’m capable of landing with my left hand, not to mention. Learning precise radio communications. What I didn’t expect was insurance being this complicated and time consuming.

What you are describing is the most logical path. Sometimes I have an issue with falling in love with a path and I have a hard time changing my mind. I bought sportbikes years ago partly because I reasoned I could save on gas vs a car when travelling. lol Your plan above is most likely where I'm going to land on this. (Pun intended)

All good advice. I consider this M20e a "cheep ass plane'. I think what i really need is just liability to protect my family and estate some and move on with this. I wonder if dropping hull value will unstick this.

Status update: For reference i put the hull value at $40k I'm trying to get added to my sister's plan now. I think this is my only way at the moment for me to fly this plane. One other issue...my sister's plan allows for other pilots to fly the plane (Open Pilot), but only if they meet some very stiff requirements: IFR Rated, 100hrs retractable, 15 hours in the same make and model. Honestly, this means that my instructor isn't covered on this plan either since he doesn't have 15hrs in an M20e. Can't be more than 1000 people in the world that meet these requirements to the letter. So if i did train in this plane, with my chosen instructor, I'm not covered until I hit the requirements for myself which would match the FAA PPL requirements for solo and passengers. Seems risky that. If i'm going to crash it will be during training. I do think i should practice landings in someone else' plane. However, my Instructor thinks it would be fine to train in the Mooney and I shouldn't bother renting since it's best to learn to fly in the plane you are actually going to own. I honestly can see both sides of the argument and it doesn't matter to me really. Unfortunately, the equation used to determine if this is a good hobby for me includes insurance costs. If its $4k a year until i get IFR ratings, then maybe I should stick to racing motorcycles! So sorting out how much this will cost will determine really if a Vintage Mooney is a good idea for me, and if flying is worth the expense to me. On the other hand, I don't like how insurance companies are squeezing the hobby and potentially putting it at risk. But giving them my money anyway isn't the best way to combat this. Maybe i just need to get renter insurance and leave the Mooney in Florida until spring.

I considered this because I don't actually have the plane in my name anyway and I think this means that I can't get my own policy for it anyway. However, Falcon told me that if I tried to get non-owner now the underwriters would see this as me trying to find a loophole to still be insured.

I'm actually in southern Indiana. My sister, and the plane, is currently an hour north of Panama City Florida.

Thanks for the replies! Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t I need at least liability to be legal? Maybe I should try hull value $0?

There is a long and crazy story behind all of this but I'm going to cut to the chase... I'm in the process of purchasing a 1966 M20e from my sister and have plans to train for my PPL in this aircraft. I'm working on the details of getting it to Indiana from Northern Florida and I've located a hangar. Today I hit a snag in my plans.... I requested an insurance quote from Falcon and just called to see why I've not heard anything and they told me the following: 10 underwriters have refused me and I'm probably not insurable at this moment. The market is changing fast right now, prices are climbing, underwriters are becoming more picky. Retractable gear is an issue for me getting insured Vintage Mooney is an issue because parts are hard to find and I quote: "hangar rash can be a total loss" I hired an instructor to let me fly it around last week to verify that I wanted to buy it. I liked it and I'm ready to go but I'm worried I'm going to have to train in a rental before I can get this thing. Side note... I'm sorry, but I don't see how a constant speed prop and retractable gear are considered "complex". I like that I can control RPM with one knob and power with another, and It's harder to turn my washing mashing on at the house then to put this gear down! Maybe "complex" is just being over dramatic? :-) My background, as this matters some for insurance: 42yrs young No medical issues or risks Professional Mechanical Engineering (Currently an Engineering Manager) Beyond perfect credit rating...maxed out. My father is a pilot and I rode all over the country with him my whole life. I understand more than the average person...just need to formalize things and finally get my licence. Anyone else have an issue getting insurance in a Vintage Mooney lately? How about Insurance in a complex high performance rated plane as a Student? Is the latter my real issue? Crazy post to start off with on this forum I know. If you all can help me out I'll have a Mooney in a couple of weeks and I'll hang out here more in the future!