Blue on Top
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Although $BB have been spent on the Uber concept, that is soooo far down the road and currently not realistic). The certification process alone is a long, long road. The path of least resistance is to electrify propulsion systems of currently certificated aircraft. That in it self is a large task, but a good stepping stone for the next phase.
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I know in Kansas it pays well for the land owner. $10,000/year to do nothing.
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@MikeOH Is the rumor true/valid that it takes more energy to make the wind turbine than it will every produce in it's lifetime?
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@carusoam I like the idea … just power the wheels! You can also brake like a Tesla, too. Of course that will come with a small weight penalty … 100% of the time.
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Wind turbines are very inefficient, and they can't afford to take them down. With that said, I believe that the current wind turbines are fixed pitch. A large gain would be made by going to variable pitch.
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The original goal was to reduce the wing area to what would be required in cruise.... and then keep the same stall speed. The big tip rotors are to reduce the tip vortices (and aerodynamically lengthen the wing). The problem became with all those 12 motors running at full bore, the airplanes accelerates (go figure). Then they had to windmill the big tip propellers to add drag There's a lot more to it … most of it being one-track minded and not thinking about the whole aircraft.
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You might want to look at this first https://www.flightglobal.com/eviation-alice-prototype-damaged-by-electric-fire-in-arizona/136327.article If you've flown a twin before, you might regret propulsion devices being on the wing tips. NASA X-57 is learning this the hard way. Oh, and the 12 engines on the wing are now only as high lift (blown flap) devices. Motors come on at clean wing stall speed and ramp up to full power at flapped stall speed. They are stowed and streamlined the remainder of the time.
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I think I'm all caught up … again Everyone is right, but you're talking fruit salad (LOL). Apples, oranges, bananas, grapefruits, prunes, melons, etc. I've been doing electric airplanes for a couple decades now. Is it possible at this time to replace a "J" with an electric airplane. NO! But .. we need to do things to get there in the future … when some form of electrons can be stored in a lighter version. First, let's get physics out of the way. Automobiles use 20-30 HP going down the road at highway speeds. @mike_elliott can tell you exactly. His Tesla tells him. An airplane (the "J") uses 200 HP on takeoff and 150 HP the rest of the time. Not comparable. Electric motor low-end torque is irrelevant; the propeller is the torque absorber … and it needs RPM … sorry @carusoam. Automobiles care about weight, but only for acceleration. Airplanes pay a drag penalty for weight depending on the L/D ratio. At this time (and this is only my personal thought), hybrid is the only way to go at this moment in time, and here is why. Batteries (or any other form of energy storage) is not there yet. But, if we can get 30 minutes of battery power for an airplane, an on-board genset can supply the power for flight. Yes, it would be heavier. The engine can be a Chevy, Ford, etc., because if it craps out, the pilot still has 30 minutes to get the airplane on the ground. This could be a certificated installation … I know, I'm on the ASTM committee writing these "regulations." I DEFINITELY DON'T KNOW IT ALL, though.
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All Y'all type way the heck too fast! I think that I have caught up with the electric airplane conversation and transferred it all to a new thread entitled, "Electric Mooney". Please make new posts in that thread. Thanks! -Ron
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@MooneyMitch Replied to @N201MKTurbo with: “Remember........ Dreams Come True”.... Disneyland!
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@N201MKTurbo Replied to @Danb with: The problem is hydrogen isn’t a fuel, it is an energy storage medium. There are no hydrogen mines or wells. You have to make it, probably from and with fossils fuels. It will never de cheap. Even as a storage medium it has problems. It isn’t very dense, even liquid has less energy per gallon then AVGAS. A liquid dewar is hard to make light and they all need maintenance eventually. It would be hard to keep the vacuum space leak free in an airplane bouncing around in turbulence. After the vacuum goes away the liquid will be gone in a few days and even if it’s perfect, you will probably loose 1/2 your fuel every month. If you wanted to use compressed gas, you would need something like 20 or more bottles the size of the big oxygen bottles. Where are you going to put those? If you do somehow find a place for all the hydrogen, forget an internal combustion engine! Get a fuel cell and go electric. The fuel cell will make the rest of the airplane look cheap, but we are dreaming.... right?
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@Danb Posted: Why not all in with hydrogen power, have to stay in California for a few years, I can’t believe hydrogen hasn’t been fully designed, developed and in service. Think the oil industry..never mind.
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@MooneyMitch Posted: I absolutely adore riding in my friends Tesla X. Ya talk about acceleration!!!!! Holly cow Batman!!!!
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@N201MKTurbo Posted: So, what would it take to make an electric Mooney. 200 HP is 150 KW, so 75% power is ~ 115KW. Lets look at a 5 hour flight with 1/2 hour at 100% power and 4 1/2 hours at 75% power. 75KWH for climb + 517 KWH for cruise, that is 592 KWH. Using the magic 500WH/KG battery, it would 1184 KG of batteries or 2600 Lbs of batteries to replace 384 Lbs of AVGAS. Payload wise, it makes a Rocket look good! Using the California electricity rate of $0.15/KWH that costs $88 for a tank of electricity, not bad... One thing nobody mentioned, no turbo required! You can climb up till you need a pressure suit and hit the coffin corner. How do propellers work in the thin air above the RSVM airspace?
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@Mooneymite Posted: In the discussion of everything eventually "going electric", I found this somewhat controversial video interesting. I suspect most of you have seen it? Planet of the Humans
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@salty Replied to @mike_elliott with: That’s what they’ve been saying for more than 50 years. Good luck with that.
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@Mike Elliott Replied to @MooneyMitch with: Well, I wont get into a TSLAQ debate with the shorts or naysayers, suffice it to say I used to race Porsche's and Datsuns, have been lucky enough to be able to drive and own some very fine cars and without question, the electric car makes even the nicest offering from Lexus feel old and antiquated. Great Software can do this to you. Dont go test drive one, they are hard on your wallet. Fortunately, my TSLA stock has paid for half of mine already Wait until Sept 15th, when possibly a greater than 500whr/Kg battery is announced, then an electric GA plane becomes viable.
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@cliffy Replied to himself: Yes somewhere down the line (when?) it will happen but not in the foreseeable future 10+ years. If I had a daily commute of 20 miles or less I might be in the electric car market but I'm not. Cost of battery replacement right now is killing the used electric car pricing IIRC How long do you think it will be before the states start to tax electric vehicles for the gas tax revenue they are losing right now? Calif just raised their gas tax again. I see a yearly mileage report and tax per mile in the future, GPS tracking of all electric vehicles for automatic billing of taxes?
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@aviatoreb Replied to @MooneyMitch with: Don't worry about me - I'm on the back deck enjoying the lazy afternoon. Also - believe it or not - I am working - slow burner - I am coding and some of my work coding involves testing my code and then debugging/trying again. So I have like 5 min dead spots in my work where I check the news or goof off on here on MS shooting-the-breeze about whatever. Good relaxing Sunday afternoon in the sunshine.
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@MooneyMitch Posted: Those young brilliant minds we all talk about that are wasting away behind their computer screens in their bedroom,......... they are, and will create what the future demands!! I see them in my music industry, and I know they are in other industries as well. Incentives, and the freedoms to pursue is the carrot for them.....
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@cliffy Replied to @MooneyMitch with: And they shut down their entire grid in N Calif when the wind blows So there you are at Yuba City plugged in to charge your big green machine and the grid goes down! Some gas stations with a little forethought can at least pump some gas with an independent generator
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@aviatoreb Replied to @cliffy with: I agree - we are not ready TODAY for electric airplanes. Or an all electric fleet of cars. But the phrase "those that forget history..." is meant for human behavior. It is not a useful expression when it comes to technology adoption or innovation. The contrary, new break out technology comes exactly because people dare to do what was not done before or what might have failed before - they innovate new technology to make it work. I just purchased a new Dino-juice car 3 months ago. I was not ready to jump on to the elective bandwagon for various cost benefit reasons. I full expect my next new car will be electric. Whether or not the power grid can expand to include an all electric car fleet does not mean for or against whether a version of all electric might be perfect for certain airplane applications. I will repeat, that in my lifetime I expect and hope to own an all electric airplane that will cover all of my current airplane flying needs and interests.
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@cliffy Posted: If any of you remember we had, many years ago, all electric homes and neighborhoods. They went the way of the dinosaur also as they didn't sell well. SLO are you listening? Those who forget history tend to repeat it. Hybrid power? Think locomotives. They run diesel generators to power electric drive motors. You have an energy loss in running the diesel engine and the generator then you have an electrical loss in powering the drive motors. Lots of energy loss in the system. Power required- for every 100 HP needed at the prop you need to generate AND deliver to it @75KW of electric power (not including the system losses). A 100 amp , 12 volt alternator delivers about 1200 watts or 1.2KWs (if my numbers are correct) Are we seeing the size and weight of an alternator that can deliver even 100 HP to the prop? Through an electric motor with its losses? A diesel engines driving a generator that drive an electric motor to drive the prop. How many points of failure in this system does one have to allow for and engineer out? And now do we see the fact that not only do we need to lift the battery pack but also the big diesel generator plus the electric drive motor? Useful load for such a contraption? All one needs to do is measure the weight per HP delivered to the prop of the entire power plant to see if you are ahead of the game or not. Until the energy density of any battery can match the energy density of dino juice by weight you will have less than we have now. Until the recharge rate for that battery can match the time element of a dino juice refill it will be a lessor item. Then factor the overall on going costs for new batteries Will they be competitive with the cost of an engine overhaul? Then you have the diesel engine to overhaul, the generator to overhaul and the electric prop drive motor to overhaul. The bottom line? The power has to come from somewhere! Dino power or? The wind don't blow but about 2/3 of the time for windmills The sun don't shine 1/2 the time The wind don't blow sometimes at night! There's only so many hydro-plants out there. There ain't gonna be any more ever built due to environmentalists! So where does that leave us? Dino Juice for the foreseeable future.
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@MooneyMitch Said: Alright..... one last comment prior to my departure........ it’s time for Mike Elliott to chime in on his beautiful Tesla X and his thoughts on the great idea of the electric Mooney..... I absolutely love that thought!!
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@aviatoreb Replied to @Hank with: Me too - but you are imaging current tech. I could imagine that tech in 5 years or 10 years might make those problems something of the past. Plus infrastructure improvements. I mean once upon a time there were gas cars (1910) and no gas stations. Today there are electric cars and few charging stations. Today the only reasonable use for an all electric car in my opinion is as a daily work commuter if you can make it there and back on a single charge. Still that covers a large fraction of the USA fleet of cars in the large fraction of the mileage they put on each year. So already there is some utility in all electric given already todays imperfect technology.
