Navi

I have been flying with a Vizion almost a year.. I like it, flys the plane very well.. simple easy installation... Nav

From what I am aware … expect the TT Vizion first and the BK version to follow... they are the same and I expect the BK STC to piggy back on the TT STC.. There is a Mooney (I think "E") in the TT hangar with "TRUTRAK" painted on the side... The plane may actually be theirs.. (?) They own a 172.. Check this ..https://www.facebook.com/trutrak/videos/495367994278357/ Vid was done back in Sept.. Call Corey and ask ?.. They are very transparent.. Nav

One of my spies speculated in Dec that King was going to rebrand the TT Vizion and market it . This was just announced... So one of the first APs to be certed with this display is the King branded Vizion.. So... I would speculate that when the Vizion is STC'd for the Mooneys, and this becomes STCd for the Mooneys… well , another option, that's all... But with the SkyView now so indefinite... This may be a lot closer? FWIW....

Hehe.... YA.. (I know) But I was able to confirm (FWIW) that the approval is submitted (Dec) and is stuck in the guvmint shutdown... So maybe?

In the interest of a large MFD retrofit SOON.. This may be of interest... https://www.bendixking.com/en/produ...MIyL-6vamb4AIVBLnACh0XegmoEAAYASAAEgJr__D_BwE STC for many aircraft soon... Nav

…..And here I am, … flapping as hard as I can!! However, my friend with the Meridian.... Nav

Hehe.... no "Rub" taken! I will keep an eye on Carusoam then .. …. You DID say the Piper wings are "awesome" so all is forgiven... Nav

Hi Carusoam! Before Christmas one of my "plane partners" showed up for an advert for a nice Mooney. (he would like to go a bit faster!) So I figured where would be the best place to catch up on what the Mooneys are all about? Have some hours in a Mooney, liked it a lot.. One of the Piper pilots also has a Mooney and mentioned this place.. ... Having just installed a new autopilot in our Cherokee, this thread attracted me right away. I have learned SO MUCH lurking in forums... I am not very active on all of them, but it is winter here and I have some time on my hands... I will probably "fade away" a bit when the weather warms up.... Nav

Ya.. it was a mis-step by Garmin. They really left the back door open on that one.. They have been playing catchup on the feature list with Garmin for some time.. The "plugin " upgrade of the Avidyne into the old Garmin tray was a brilliant marketing move. The new Garmin dependence on the almost all "touch screen" was another trip. Garmin stopped making the 430 and 530 trays so buyers of the used 430 could not buy a tray to install them.. So Avidyne is selling extra trays so they can install the used Garmins… Guess what these customers will buy when THEY are able to upgrade! Now Garmin is trying to modify the approvals so one must now have a GARMIN tray to install the used 430s (take this as a rumour only) Nav

>>I can't access the link without registering with piper forum... Sandman, my apologies.. I was mistaken, you do have to register/subscribe.. It has been a while and I had forgotten.. (I attend 5 forums) (Nav hangs head and shuffles feet) :(

>>>If there isn't much of an AP market after the Mooney and one doesn't have a desire to compete for market-share... well, that's a very tough position to be in. Perhaps they'll figure it all out, but I can't say my confidence level is very high. There are several other markets.. The Comanches and Twincos, Bonanzas, and some Cessnas. Grumman seems to have a following. The numbers are not very large but they are there.. The successes will come from offering upgrades and optional features and integrations with other products. "Trade in (up? ) your XXX for the new XXX + with YYY feature! " The necessary element for this to work and continue is a large enough "installed base" established in the beginning.. Another would be offering a "trade-in " value for your old S-Tec (or whatever) AP parts/ servos. Would not have to be much to increase your market share. Look what Avidyne is doing to Garmin now.. There is more to come! Nav

But they did! A surprising number of 140s are getting them! Lots are being installed, and the Cherokee Arrows, Daks, 235s, 236s, Togas and "6"s are fast haulers. They can't catch a Mooney, but.... Many older ones have Century Is, IIs and IIIs and are ready for replacement.. Some are installing a new AP for less than the repair estimates for their S-Tex's . It's a new world... Nav

One thing that skewed the numbers was the commonality of parts and design of the Piper models... Mr. Piper was very adept at bolting on different wings and engines to make very different airplanes... Every Cessna model is completely different.. Turns out that the areas where the TruTrak Servos mount are virtually identical across the Piper fleet. Not so with the Trio servos and some others. The Trio pitch servo mounts to the stabilitator balance beam in the standard Piper fuselage, and that leaves all the T-Tails waiting for another design. Last I heard, the roll servo mount is different for the straight wings and the taper wings. Many variations are expensive to design , produce and support . I understand that the TT for the Mooney fits all variations under a blanket STC. Their Mooney has been test flown and the STC approval is imminent. If this is accurate, they will be first off the mark for the Mooney crew by a huge margin. They identified the market for the Mooney and placed it in the business plan a long time ago.. Anyone here know what the next aircraft model would be after the Mooneys? (Based on fleet numbers) Nav

Hi David_H... I believe the "Mooney Market" for a reasonably priced Autopilot is there.. As a poster pointed out earlier, the gross numbers pale in front of the Cessna 17X - 18X models, and then the Pipers.. but Mooneys are next. However, the perception is that Mooneys are fast travelling machines, and I would expect a higher percentage of the owners would have a greater hunger for an autopilot than owners of the PA-28s and 172s... Many of the P and C number's are in the training sector. I have never encountered a Mooney trainer... In short, it's worth doing right after those Cessnas and Pipers. So.. the expected process is being followed by TruTrak, Dynon and Garmin, no surprise.. Nobody can figure out what Trio is doing. The initial "Pent up Demand" market for the Cessnas and Pipers is over. TruTrak has taken that, estimates are as high as 95% of the APs going into this market are born in the TT factory. They are now producing at maximum capacity and barely keeping up with the demand (with a significant backlog of orders) , and moving to a larger facility this spring. The user and knowledge base is large and growing rapidly, - some shops have already done more than 20 installs and are offering "installed and out the door" pricing. Trio is now "judging serious demand " as you have read here.. but , as you have also read here, has already "completed the engineering study"".... ??? … Say what? Garmin is also a "non starter" in this market, Their AP is too expensive and they are very aloof in stating what and when for other markets. Not many are waiting on them unless they already have a legacy AP and want to upgrade or have high performance aircraft that need features like ASI select. I have owned or had a vested interest in 14 Businesses over my working years.. I can assure you "profit" is necessary. A profit is essential for any company to be around in the future to support the product. Without a profit, the resources (and enthusiasm) of individual investors WILL run out ... This SHOULD be a given before anybody invests real money into the purchase of any product. It can become very difficult,...... ask a Saturn owner.... >>Saying: 'I'm here to help, not to make a profit'... then basically saying: 'I'm outta here' was very strange. The rest of the story is even stranger.. I was also considering the Trio solution until it all imploded last year.. The story is all there on other forums.. Sorry for the ramble, but it's -18C here and I am staying indoors... Nav

To your comments.. I think you can read the forum without registering.. like this one.. Register to post etc. Any aircraft is a bear to install stuff in the tail, and the Mooney design is worse than most.. but one manufacturer has chosen to.. My choice was between the Trio and the TruTrak, I don't have the budget for the Garmin or others. But, I , also, have invested significantly in my aircraft since acquisition.. Trio/STC Group know there is a market out there.. but... when the business plan includes the Mooney market study starting on Sat Evening and ending early Monday Afternoon... I suspect most late model Mooneys will end up with the Garmin, but the other (majority) will be candidates for the lower cost options.. Ignore the Piper stuff in the thread. It is however, an education in the issues surrounding getting STCs, marketing and engineering, and will give you a lot of essential info if you are going to spend hard earned dollars on an Autopilot. It is also an insight into what is happening in this market now. The Piper and Cessna guys have gone before you. Lessons were learned, some were hard lessons. The information is available if you choose to access it. Sandman >>Don't forget, these autopilots have been used successfully in the experimental category for almost two decades. So, I continue to look forward to the replacement of my dated autopilot and the sooner the better I agree completely, and I have been flying one since April 2018. Love it. Totally impressed... (!) Nav

Sandman... you REALLY need to read this thread... It's long... But it tells how one manufacturer literally bombed out of the Cherokee market. Cessna guys have a similar story. Some of them are REALLY upset after purchasing and installing. There is more, but doubtful it should be in a public forum... :( https://www.piperforum.com/threads/pa-28-autopilot-stc.10132/

I was told that flying coupled approaches is a significant certification challenge, and has to be done with each pairing of approved GPS navigators.. Any truth to this? What does the Garmin need additionally to be certed for this? Nav

>>Sure, it might be someday, it might also someday have electric pitch trim but considering how rarely any avionics manufacturer meets any of their targets I'd never buy anything assuming it may someday do what I want if it's a feature I really want. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A valid statement... :) But some have better performance records than others.. Some lead, ( Avidine, TruTrak, Aspen, Alpha) some follow, (S-Tec, Century) and some have to be pushed.. (Garmin) And there are others... >I'm looking into whether the all in one autopilots have a slot for trim servo... The TT "auto Trim " system is already in the unit, it signals the pitch indicator now, and can signal your existing electric trim, but is not approved to do do. (yet) I think, but not sure, that the Trio does as well. Garmin has it approved in the STC, but in some aircraft, MAJOR work is involved to install the trim servo. >Dunno if it's lip service or not, but the avionics shop said he expected the Garmin 500 series autopilot to be certified for our planes within 30 days. The guvmint approval process is closed at this time . I would start counting again after they are back to work and add 60 days to clear the backlog... Coupled approaches may be approved for the TT and Trio eventually, the STC approval process for this is long and expensive, so watch for it to be driven by a large demand from the sold customer base.. TT is building a large customer base, so it may happen. Trio, not so much. Garmin is driven by a different market and the demand for coupled approaches is from their target market. YMMV!

On another forum, a guy tested his TT a few weeks ago on his Archer.. The TT flew the whole approach, with hold, with landing reconfig, to 7-8 ft. in mild gusts, where he discoed the AP, pulled off the power and flared over the centerline ... Its very capable, and TT hope to get it tested for the cert to do it legally. Other priorities at this time though, like getting the STC for the Mooneys… With the Aspen E5 in the mix, if your ILS will talk to the Aspen, it will pass through the directions to the TT and it will track the ILS. Whatever you select on the Aspen, if it can display it, it will insert the data in the ARINC 429 data stream. The TT will follow these directions, not knowing or caring where they originate... What the TT does lack is IAS select for climbs and descents, a helpful feature in rough conditions at or near the higher alts where the aircraft may be running out of puff. You can "workaround" the lack of this feature (BTW the Garmin CAN do this, it has IAS select) by setting the "MinSpeed" in the TT to your Vy, and tweak the VS setting as you climb to "rarer air". >Not perfect, but close enough for a lot of us! Yup! Very close for many, including me! 95% of what the Garmin can do for half the cost. Nav

I have a JPI 830. I recorded fuel use and found the indicator readings to be within 0.25% . Don't be afraid to tweak the K factor to dial it in.. At 0.25%, I thought that was close enough... Nav

After looking at adding "altitude hold" to our Century I for $14000 (Cdn) , Installing an (almost) full featured autopilot for half of that cost had some appeal.... :) Nav

>>>If you are considering a 2 servo system, I don't see why the installation of one brand should take much longer than another. Should take about the same amount of time to mount the servos and run wiring to them. Should take about the same amount of time to run wiring to the GPS unit. Should take about the same amount of time to mount the unit itself. Previous experience to date is with 172s and PA-28s. Trio mounts the pitch servo in the tail, attached to the balance beam in the PA-28s. It is a BEAR of a job crawling back there in the tailcone and if your PA-28 does NOT have the ELT access hole back there to pass parts and tools in, it is worse. The roll servo mounts in the wing in both the Cessna and the Cherokee, and it is like building a ship in a bottle. (for some Cherokees they moved the roll servo under the seat.) The Cherokee stabilator has to be removed and rebalanced with the roll servo attachments mounted on the balance beam. Copious Shop hours are consumed, with two persons needed for a lot of the time.. . Running wiring out the wing takes far more time than to the space under the back seat. In contrast, the TruTrac installation is "Brilliantly clever". (words of others) Nothing has to be moved. It is all under the rear seat. Take the seats out, sit down and go to work. 2 People are needed for only 20 minutes of the total install time.. Instructions are simple and clear. The Roll Servo bracket mounts the same as the Century I, already installed in many planes. Remove the old, place the new TT mount and match drill. The Garmin plan for the PA-28s involves moving the battery on many models, It's a big job needing new cables mounts and WT & B.. Hoping the Mooneys have a similar design in the back seat area that would make it easy as well, but conversation with Corey at TruTrak may sort that out.. I understand that their Mooney is well into the flight testing with the TT system installed and it's flying the plane very well. You are correct Bob, the rest (AP disco, circuit breaker, master switch, data connections) are the same. Nav

Latest info , as of early January, TT<>Aspen , - heading bug , altitude bug, baro sync. If, - ILS, GPSWAAS, VOR, Mag heading (with magnetometer) GS, are fed into the Aspen, (digitally or analogue with an adaptor,) it will translate any of these you select and direct the TruTrac vertically and laterally through the ARINC 429 data stream. TruTrak <>G5, heading bug. MAYBE baro sync and alt sync. (Garmin is not anxious at all to integrate with others, and that should be no surprise to any here)... The TT<>Aspen integration is working in some experimental aircraft, Aspen and TT have been co-operatively working on it for some time. Trio, -- Integration similar to TT is possible, but no one is very forthcoming with information . The Aspen E5<> TT integration relegates the TT control head to ON-Off status only for many functions. Navi