pwnel

5 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

With the 231 especially, so much depends on how the aircraft was flown, specifically the engine.  If it was flown hot, you are going to be looking at a top in about 400-600 hrs.  Some of the POH settings are hard on the engine, and as Paul mentioned, if the fuel flow is not set up properly, that is hard on the engine also. Borescope will tell you quite a bit, but some things you just can’t see, like what kind of life the turbo has had.  Fortunately, the turbo can be replaced without extensive engine work, but it is still in the neighborhood of $3500. But when friends ask me opinions on aircraft they are looking at, the biggest issue I see is not usually the airframe and engine, its the avionics.  The panel has all kinds of do-dads, but they are obsolete and/or can’t be serviced anymore.  Narco radios, really old GPS’s, no GPS’s. A good WAAS GPS is not an absolute necessity, but you are going to have problems with installing ADSB mandated equipment in the next couple of years if you do not have a good GPS in the panel. You can drop $50,000 pretty quickly on a panel overhaul.  I just looked at an Archer for a friend.  Narco’s, very old VFR only GPS, six pack instruments in need of an overhaul.  He wanted the aircraft for IFR.  He was going to have more money in the panel re-work than the purchase price of the aircraft.

True. It helps if the previous owner spent the money on the panel as it's never recovered in a sale (so the buyer has the benefit).  

But if the choice was between a fancy panel and a new engine (roughly same cost), I'd sleep better with a new engine.  A panel upgrade is completely under my control.  An aircraft that goes AOG in the Caribbean or somewhere 1000 miles from home with a busted engine ... not so much.

Btw, this is also where a EDM with stored engine data can be a real asset when it comes to telling the story of how the aircraft was flown.

PS @carusoam panel is 2x Garmin 480, MX20 and Stec 55X.  Nice setup and a big selling point for IF.  (I'm kind of sensitive to talk too much about this plane - don't want to negatively affect or offend the seller with my Mooney newbie open forum questions.)  My IF training was all on G1000 and around New York airspace (KCDW) so I'm comfortable with TAA, busy airspace etc.  If I do ferry that plane back it will be over at least two days, not above 14000ft and in VFR though.

18 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Hmmm... subtle approach wasn’t well received.... feel like I should try again...

This happens around NYC often...

Pwnel, i’m Trying to be a friendly resource...

Insurance usually demands a certain number of hours in the plane to fly solo.  Then another number of hours to fly with passengers...

Five hours learning all there is to know about a complex, high performance plane that is capable of crossing the country at Indy car speeds...

You could be a pro pilot with decades of flying experience.  Or you could be 100 hours from your initial flight...  either way, consider getting some decent TT...

If you are highly experienced 10 hours covers a lot of the detail.  Less experienced 20 hours covers the rest.

You want to pick-up the usual experience handling the plane around the airport, the emergencies, and the long cross countries at altitude...

Can you tell us about your experience?

What does the panel have for equipment? Classic round dials and a gps? All glass with the latest from Garmin? Which are you most familiar with?

Best regards,

-a-

Sorry, yes I totally hear you (long day :-).  Your comments totally makes sense - much appreciated.  Don't worry, I'm not a New York investment banker with more money than sense (with apologies to all investment bankers here)

Better idea to just disconnect the delivery from the transition training and not do that under pressure.  See if it passes the pre-buy hurdle first.

~300hr PPL+IF pilot, been flying for 11 years, busy with Com at present. Time mostly on RV7, C182s and Jabiru's (experimental) - very little retract time. 

12 minutes ago, kortopates said:

24 hrs in 9 months should inspire some confidence if all those hours weren't from 9 months ago.

You can negotiate some decrease in engine value off the only 631 TSMOH if the calendar time since last overhaul is more closer to twice Continentals recommended 12 years. 

Just make sure before the Ferry flight that the fuel system is set up properly providing the required FF at redline MAP & RPM so that it doesn't have excessive TIT's at takeoff and in climb. That's the biggest issue we see with first time new owners of these. All it takes is a trip in pattern to assess. Continentals spec on this engine is 23.0-24.7 GPH and really you want it 0.5-1.0 above the high number or 25.2-25.7 at redline MAP which is 40" without an intercooler or about 2.5-3" less with one.  

Thanks again, overhaul was in '96.  So that's 22 years.  It's intercooler fitted, no merlin, no GAMI.  So the way I have it is 37" and 2700 rpm for the fuel flow you mention.

Insurance needs 5 hours dual with a Mooney instructor so I should be well briefed by then. Fully intend a MAPA PPP as soon as possible afterwards.

Another question - is it normal to consistently have annuals that end up being 14-18 months apart?

2 hours ago, RustyNance said:

 Long story short, mice had invaded the airplane and the urine caused more corrosion than he was comfortable with.

Well, yes... Vref also doesn't have a line item for the impact of mice piss corrosion... :-) :-) 

1 hour ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I would do a pretty good flight on it as well, checking operation on everything.  Clearly the engine should be looked at closely (borescope, oil analysis, compressions, oil consumption, cut open the filter and inspect, and a good visual inspection for leaks or other issues). 

Thanks, flew it for just under an hour - and everything works. But my ferry flight from Texas to New York will be more hours than this plane was flown for the 3 years from 2014 to 2017. It worries the hell out of me.

34 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Continentals have shown cam lifters to generate pits that carve the cam...

Part of the PPI should have an inspection to try to determine if this is a probability or not.

Look up the pricing to be aware of what an OH can cost.  Continental has a web site that has pricing on their engines.

If you like statistics, things are running in your favor.  Just don’t get stuck in the off chance that corrosion has caused a challenge before you take ownership.

If you are a gambler, be sure to be able to get an OH of things go south... don’t bet the whole house on it...

Thanks again folks.  I think most of us won't want a surprise $45k expense.  This is a financed plane - an unplanned overhaul will be a real mess.  

Ultimately I'm in the hands of the guy doing the PPI - Mooney Service Center and well respected.  Things like oil consumpion is hard to determine if you don't have a record of what was put into the plane.  Will make sure all the items you mentioned gets thoroughly looked it.  Thanks for the help.

Hi folks, would love to hear your opinion on this.  This aircraft is entering pre-buy tomorrow.  M20K 231, LB engine.  It lived in a hangar for at least the last 20 years, so there doesn't seem to be airframe corrosion and it was maintained by all the well-known (Texas) Mooney shops.  However, below are the hours flown - sometimes it seems to have sat for 18 months with <2hrs flown.  Engine compressions:  70, 70, 72, 62, 72, 62.  (keeping SB03-3 into account of course - so the compressions alone doesn't tell the whole story).

Am I looking at a hangar queen that has hidden headaches waiting for me?  What would your advice be on this engine?  Vref doesn't take this kind of data into account at all.  I'm intending minimum 50 hrs p/a and it hasn't been flown like that for more than a decade.   

I honestly thought buyers would be a little bit more sophisticated but thanks for clarifying.  

Still looks like a great deal. Though I may still go for a J as my first Mooney. What I'd do with this one (and any plane) is not to over-capitalize.  2x G5, GTN 750, GTR 225 and have the panel and wiring ready for the GFC500 A/P once the STC is done. For most Mooneys I would fly it as-is and wait for the GFC500 before I even start on the panel.  Having done my IR in a GFC700 plane that A/P is a killer feature for me and a great reason to look for a plane that hasn't been upgraded with stuff that won't work with it (like Aspen 1000s) but that are included in the Vref price.

Hello all,

First post for me here.  I'm in the market for a good M20J because it seems to be the best deal from everything I read here.  But even though I'm East Coast based for now, I work in tech and it's entirely likely that I would shift base to San Francisco at some point.  I wouldn't want to change planes if that happens.  This will be a leisure machine for weekend getaways.  From New York I would want to reach the Bahamas.  From West Coast I would want to get to places like Utah, Colorado for climbing/skiing.  It would be nice to fit 4 adults, even if that means more frequent fuel stops.

This plane looks like such a great deal, I'm surprised it hasn't moved.  I'm also worried about that as I would want to offload an asset like this in a reasonable amount of time myself in case I want to upgrade/downgrade.  I believe the market for K's is quite soft?

How should I think about this?  Go for a J, or shop for a good K like this.  (I like the low engine time - the panel I'll upgrade - even though I know I would get 50c max on the $ for what could be a 40 to 50 AMU upgrade if I ever let it go.

Thx