Mark942

Since I am spending my son's inheritance, and he has made it very clear that I can never sell the Mooney cause it's his when I hang up my spurs, I guess I should ask him to make me a plug holder like this one. He does furniture making as a hobby. Maybe put both our initials on it?? Thanks for the photo. -mark

Yep, I have already got support from the Mrs. that in this case it is a lesson learned and so I am going to have a JPI 900 installed once it makes it to the avionics shop. Might as well make that hole in the sky we pour money into a bit bigger

I'll discuss with him when we meet again some time after Christmas. I will look up and read the LSI in the mean time. Thanks for the info. -mark

Thanks for your support, The new plugs were Tempest. Back when the engine first presented the problem, the start, idle, taxi and run-up was all normal as was Mag check and Prop cycle. Engine ran smooth and had been operating from initial start to the start of the aborted take off roll was probably about 10 minutes. After pulling power back to idle and getting off the run way, I went through a normal run-up with Mag check and Prop cycle and all again seemed fine. Then ran at 2000 RPM and leaned to max Cyl #3 EGT for a minute. Then another run-up with Mag check and Prop cycle. Everything still seemed fine, but when I tried second attempt at take off - 2300RPM max, so I brought the throttle back and headed for the hangar. 2 or 3 minutes into the taxi the engine began to back fire ( RPM=1000), and continued to get worse and seemed to be more violent in amplitude and frequency as I rolled along on my way back to the hangar. I tried gradually leaning all the way to the point the engine started running really rough from starvation, and also tried 700 and 1200 RPM but nothing helped. Fast forward to now, when I replaced all plugs and wiring harness. Pulled to plane onto the taxi way between the row of hangars and started engine easy, and let it set and run at 1000 RPM to warm up. Ran good, but I could feel a slight roughness just setting there. After gauges all in the green (about 4 or 5 minutes) I started advancing RPM. At about 1200-1300 RPM occasional backfiring starts. As I increase RPM to 1500 then 1700 RPM backfiring is pretty constant. I never tried doing a Left/Right Mag check. Tried leaning engine but that didn't help. Decided to shut it down, but wanted to see if max static RPM had changed so advanced to full throttle for about 4 or 5 seconds. Max RPM was up just a bit, maybe an increase of 50 or 75 RPM over last test. Plan was to pull Mags if this didn't help, and I was so resigned to just shutting it down and yanking the Mags off, I didn't have the foresight to do a Left/Right Mag check. Also, I noticed the one clean plug only after we had all four bottom plugs removed, and I was just handling them out of curisity so I have no idea which cylinder/Mag is the issue. I know we could do some looking in the cylinder with the bore scope again, etc, but have elected to go ahead and pull both Mags and they are now over at a shop for a bench test. I guess there is a possibility of a wire issue with the new harness or even a bad plug out of the box, but I really think I will hear that one of the Mags is the issue. Have not looked back through the log book to see when the Mags were last overhauled. The engine had a field major OH just under 200 hours ago. Thanks for everyone's input. I'll keep posting what I find out. -mark

Update on engine: A/P was over and we pulled both Mags. He removed all bottom plugs and rotated prop to get compression on Cyl #1 and set engine to 25 BTDC before removing Mags. That makes timing easier when reinstalling. I just happened to be looking at the 4 plugs we had removed and set in a box. These plugs have no more than 10 minutes run time on them. What I found was amazing. One of the four was as clean and unblemished as it was when it came out of the box. Obviously, that plug is not firing, which most probably means one of the Mags is acting up. Only problem is I didn't keep track of which cylinder each plug came out of. Mags are on their way to G&N for bench testing. There is light at the end of a long dark tunnel.

Update on replacing wiring harness and all plugs: No real change. Engine still backfires and runs rough. Max static RPM did go up a bit to just under 2400 RPM. I think this small improvement in max power is a result of all new wires and plugs. Just like doing a tune up on a 1963 Chevy. If you wanted it to start in the winter in northern Indiana you did a tune up of new plugs and points every fall and new wires every two or three years. Next steps are to pull Both Mags and take them to a Mag shop and have them bench tested under load. Overhaul if anything is abnormal. Have also decided to shut the door after the horse ran away, and when I am finally able to get the plane to the avionics shop, I am going to have a JPI 900 installed. I'll keep everyone posted on progress with the Mags. -mark

I'll try that this weekend and report back. Thanks

I'll try the vacuum blow test for leaks this weekend. Sounds like a good trick. I assume, I use soapy water and a tooth brush around seals to look for bubbles??

New plugs and wiring harness on order. Talked with A/P today and he is coming over Saturday morning. I want to install new wires and plugs then ground run and see if any difference. If not, I want him to re-time both Mags. Ground run. If no improvement pull both Mags and send to Mag shop for inspection/overhaul. Also want to check if possibility of vibration causing intermittent grounding of one of the Mag P wires. Problem is the same if on Left or Right Mag or Both. That's the plan for now.

On way back to hangar, I tried leaning as far as possible to see if I could find a "sweet" spot. Seemed that running lean helped, but certainly didn't stop backfiring.

No metal in oil. Oil consumption good at about a qt per 8 or 9 hours. Oil analysis at every oil change looks within reasonable range and consistent.

Servo was removed and overhauled at a D&G in Niles, Michigan. Second time, removed and took it up to them and they bench tested it and provided me with all the actual data at no charge. Servo working in spec.

Forgot to mention that I removed the inlet filter, and looked up inside with flashlight as best as I could. Ran engine on tarmac without filter installed just to confirm no difference.

Engine backfires at even low RPMs, below 1000. Just seems to get more violent at higher RPMs.

My A/P repaired it himself at his shop and returned it, and reinstalled. He also set the timing at time of reinstall.

Bendix 200 series -mark

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I am at work right now and stealing a minute to look at replies. I will respond to some of the questions tonight if at all possible. Sure appreciate the inputs. My last day at "work" is the 22nd and as luck has it, I have been able to rent a heated hanger with a cement floor and nice lighting as of January 1st. Working in a junky 50 year old T-Hangar with a salamander blasting Jet-A fumes makes this a lot more memorable, but looking forward to the new digs. -mark

Thanks Clarence, I'm an electrical engineer, and so always think everything is electrical , having said that I do want to talk with my A/P about simply replacing the plugs and wires (cheap compared to the last few weeks) and maybe he could even find some "loaner" Mags ??? Thanks for your thoughts. -mark

LOW STATIC RPM, Engine Backfiring Background: Mooney 1963, M20E, IO 360-A-1-A with RaJay Normalizing Turbo, 4747 Total Hours, 178 SMOH, plane airworthy but bought in October 2015 to restore better than new as retirement project. 62 hours flown in 24 months since purchase while lots of down time for restoration work such as tank strip and reseal, etc. Chronology of engine problems: Aircraft has performed pretty reliably for having a period of little use for several years. Engine oil analysis at Prebuy=all in normal range, and two subsequent oil analysis the same. First engine issue was a failing left Mag due to an oil seal leak allowing oil into Mag housing (164 SMOH). Repaired and all was well. About 3 months ago, (174 SMOH) on a night takeoff, a glance at engine gauges on the start of the takeoff roll showed RPM 2300, MP 28-29”. Run-up had been normal. I exited onto taxi way, and performed another run-up which again was normal. Did a full power static run-up and only got 2300 RPM. Tried running at 2000 RPM and peak EGT for a minute in the hope that a plug was fouled. Brought RPM down to idle then slowly advanced to full throttle. RPM only 2300 RPM / MP=28. While pulling throttle back, this time the engine began to back fire a few times. Headed for hangar about a half mile away, and by the time I was half way there the engine was VIGOROUSLY backfiring at 1000 RPM. Tried to lean to reduce backfiring but had little effect. Please keep in mind, that until this moment, I had never had a problem with backfiring on this engine. A week later A/P arrived and after a day of checking various things, he felt that the problem was in the fuel system and suspected the fuel injection servo. I removed it and he took it to a repair shop that specializes in overhauling fuel system components. Full overhaul on servo, and 3 weeks later reinstalled and plane ran perfectly. Fast forward 3.7 hours (178 SMOH) spread over 3 flights. Again, a night flight. Everything normal including starting, taxi to runway, run-up Mag check, and Prop check. On take off roll 2300 RPM, 28-29” MP. This time as soon as I brought throttle back, the engine started backfiring. Tried to clear plugs by 2000 RPM leaning, but as soon as throttle reduced, backfiring begins and continues. Back to hangar, and now A/P has spent 4 days with me spending much more time than that in between his visits, doing the manual labor. All intake gaskets and seals replaced. Fuel sumps double checked for water or sediment, lines purged, screens removed and cleaned, lines removed from fuel divider and fuel pumped into measured container and timed. All 4 lines equal. Fuel pressure on electric pump alone about 10 PSI. Fuel pressure with engine pump at full throttle 25-30 range and doesn't change with or without electric pump on. Fuel Servo removed and taken for bench flow testing with no issues. Fuel divider removed, inspected by A/P, cleaned, and new diaphragm installed just because we had one. Turbo has not been engaged at all in the past 10 hours of flight. On the ground, we have moved the turbo control lever and verified that the exterior turbo lever arm is going from stop to stop. Compression checks are always in the range of 73 to 78. We have checked compression several times. A/P has rotated prop by hand and felt for proper compression feel and sound. He has inspected the valves with a bore scope and sees nothing unusual. I have asked about the Prop governor and he says the blade angle looks proper with engine off, and the prop would not cause the backfiring. He has 40+ years of experience working for several shops including a period at Purdue University and has owned his own shop for 25+ years. He says this has him stumped. My A/P is reaching out to discuss with Lycoming Engines, and a couple other A/P shops. The plane was scheduled to go into an avionics shop today for the beginning of several upgrades including an Avidyne IFD 550, but that has now been rescheduled for January at the earliest. Any thoughts on contacting SAVVY aircraft maintenance management. I know it is “after the fact” but has anyone had experience with them being able to pinpoint a problem where an experienced A/P is stumped?? BTW, I only have an original analog EGT on cylinder #3. No fancy engine monitor for help. All other crappy original Money analog engine gauges are in normal range. Ref: Major Overhaul in November 2001 at (4569 TTAF). Hours flown per year: Year Hrs 2002 22 (22 SMOH) (4591 TT) 2003 29 (51 SMOH) (4620 TT) 2004 16 (67 SMOH) (4636 TT) 2005 17 (80 SMOH) (4649 TT) 2006 7 (87 SMOH) (4656 TT) 2007 5 (92 SMOH) (4661 TT) 2008 4 (96 SMOH) (4665 TT) 2009 10 (106 SMOH) (4675 TT) 2010 2 (108 SMOH) (4677 TT) 2011 1 (109 SMOH) (4678 TT) 2012 0 (109 SMOH) (4678 TT) 2013 0 (109 SMOH) (4678 TT) 2014 0 (109 SMOH) (4678 TT) 2015 2 (111 SMOH) (4680 TT) Purchased plane in late October, 2015 2016 43 (154 SMOH) (4723 TT) 2017 24 (178 SMOH) (4747 TT) Waiting for a solution to problem Left Mag Repaired 4733 Fuel Injector Overhauled 4743 Second issue +3.7 Thanks, -mark

Andy, I discussed with my wife tonight and she suggested that I should wait until I am finished with the interior make over and then get the belts to match since we are still flip flopping on the color scheme. Guess i will pass after all, but thanks for getting back to me. -mark

I have a 64E without shoulder harnesses and would like to upgrade to belts with harnesses. How would the shoulder strap attach?? If they will work in a 64E then I too am interested, but only if Dennis and Greg pass. -mark

Thanks for all the great detail. I find that I am relearning how to get my hand to bend into unnatural shapes until it cramps up and I drop the screw for the umptenith time . Reminds me of my young days when I spent more time under my 396SS than in it. I do enjoy working on the plane though, and the details you share will help me a lot. Thanks,

Hi this is Mark, I have a 64 M20E that I bought last year and love it. I am slowly ($$$) trying to restore it with a lot of TLC and willing to work next to my kind ole A/P. Looking to upgrade interior. I have owned a machine shop and pretty good with my hands and not afraid of work, but want it to turn out nice. Opinions on buying interior "kits" and from where; as well as I would like to upgrade to seats with head rests before I recover them. Also I will be attempting to reseal tanks this spring prior to painting next winter. Was told by paint shop that I should replace donuts in gear prior to repaint and tank reseal. How do I determine if donuts should be replaced?? My A/P says there should be a way to measure height?? but he is not versed in it, and also how do I get use of the special wrench?? Suggestions please, -mark

To Mike, (rangermb), Thanks for the chance to go up with you yesterday. As I posted on here earlier, I went ahead and made the plunge and bought my first Mooney (yet to be delivered) but after a chance to fly with you, Mike, I am certain I have made a good decision. Your explanations and walk through of how and why and your own experience of transition from a Cherokee to a Mooney really helps. Thanks so much for the generosity of your time and the chance to fly your Money with you for a bit. Just wanted to let everyone know how much I appreciated your coming to Warsaw to give me my first taste of the Mooney experience. -mark

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and your encouragement. I think I need to get my wife to sit in one. She is the one who complains about being claustrophobic. She always wants an isle seat on airliners. She was dead set against a Van's RV until I got her to actually sit in one up at OshGosh. It was a RV7A and she loved it. We didn't go up, but we did shut the bubble and she said she was just fine in it. I think the bubble helped with that. I think it is a bit of a roasting oven in the sunlight, but then I am really a winter person. I will show her these posts tonight. Thanks again, -mark