m20flyer

Great writeup. Thank you.

Or GO-480s. That "G" is something I want nothing to do with. Geared engines are great when they're happy, but I don't want to overhaul one. I called on the OH cost of a GSTIO-520 a little while ago. $100K, $120k if you needed new parts. No support for the earlier variants. That's per engine, by the way.

My wife would be on board with a TwinBo with the side facing sofa and airstair! Talk about a money pit though.

I've been limited to NA planes over the last 10 years or so. My own Beech (IO-520; 285hp), a friend's 172/180hp, and another friend's NA 310. The Beech would do mountain trips, but I would only try to get up and out of the mountains in the morning. We had enough margin in cool air and reasonable winds, and it was a good enough plane for my loads back then (pre-kids) but we sold it and I'm not eager to get back into one at today's prices. The 172/180 is actually a really good plane, but it's still a 172 and you still need to be cognizant of the limitation that a 172 has, especially when you're up high. You can have a surprisingly decent useful load on a light 172 with the 180hp upgrade and GWI. Still, not a good hot/high hauler. I'd take it to Durango (OOC) because the in/out is from/to the flatlands and you can land at Farmington if you're not happy with how the flight is going. The 310 is good. But, as with most twins, when you load it up and fly in thin air, it won't fly well on one engine (T310s are different; I really like T310s). We did a trip to a ski resort in a long valley a couple summers ago. I landed at an airport at the bottom of the hill, rented a car, and drove the family up to the resort. Had we flown in, losing an engine would have required a forced landing in a high valley. Very limited escape routes and not a lot of room to return to the airport. At least going to the lower airport would have given me options to land on roads or farm fields. Prior to 2013, all of my flying was in turbo'd twins (Cessna 300/400) and turboprops doing firefighting and UPS cargo. Both of those jobs were in the mountains. The fire was exclusively a summer thing and the fright was all year around. So, maybe I just got spoiled with TSIO piston engines. Those anemic climb rates in NA singles are just less and less comfortable as I get older.

Recurring flights into the Rockies. I've done enough mountain flying to know that a turbo is something I really want for our summer trips into high DA.

I threw it out there for the feedback. My initial conclusion that a Mooney is a suboptimal choice for what I need seems to have been correct, unfortunately. I'd need a turbo Mooney with the UL on the unusually high side. Even then I'd be load restricted to essential items only. The solution here is a plane that was meant to carry people and their stuff comfortably at the expense of speed and efficiency. PA-32, Cessna 200 series, etc. Bummer.

The technique I've used across a range of piston singles and twins, up to 421s and even the smaller turboprops, is to have approach flaps in (or equivalent, depending on model) 10-25nm out depending on altitude, speed, and workload. I'll add gear at FAF. Whatever flap setting I'll use for landing is added in as needed shortly before landing. The pitch change has never really been an issue. This last setting can depend on crosswind and icing. It's worked for me in all kinds of conditions and the FAA never had an issue with it during my 135 rides. End of the day, do what you're comfortable doing.

I'm considering a J or K model. If there is anyone in the Phoenix area willing to do a show and tell, I'd appreciate it! No flying, just a hands on session. The big question is whether or not a mid-length will work as the kids get bigger.

I have the books for A-R models. They use a good bit of runway for sure. Good rates of climb though. I passed up a turbo F (all manual) a few years ago and regret it. That would have been a nice plane. Maybe a J is the way to go. A TN J would be an excellent plane! The mountain airports we use all have ~7,000' runways or better. The only exception will be Durango (00C) but that's still a 5,000' strip with a bit of a downhill slope. My hard-IFR freight days are behind me and I'm willing to wait for favorable conditions.

He could. I'm learning the Mooney market. Strikes me as steep, but I'll keep an eye on what moves. I've been watching 205/206/cherokee6 sit for a long time due to fantasy pricing schemes. Maybe the Encore is a $200k plane. Too rich for me in that case! Market isn't what it was two years ago.

What little I've read about it seems to point to an improved steel tube structure with larger diameter tubes (or maybe more structure?) near the wing attach points and beefier main gear units. I have no idea if this is true. It's just what I've gleaned from a couple articles.

I agree! I'd love one! They're few and far between though. I think there's one for sale now and the owner wants $200k. Good for him if he can get it!

O2 is not a problem. We can do that. DA at home is 5,000' on a "cool" summer day and closer to 10,500 on typical summer days at our usual mountain destinations. I'm pretty much settled on a turbo or a 285-300hp NA engine in a 205/206/Cherokee6. A 50% partnership would be ideal.

The 231s look like a good value right now. I'm getting more serious about buying and would look hard at a mid-body Mooney if the back seats are actually usable. My experience is with an F model converted to a 201 (all the speed mods) and it was a decent hauler. >1000 useful if I remember correctly. I rarely had back seaters though. Here's what I know: The -LB is more desirable, and I'd expect the -GBs to have been worked out by now. If I find one with a -GB, should that be considered a dealbreaker? The earlier models and even some of the Js have SB208 for corrosion in the roll cage on the pilot side. Are the 231s subject to this SB? If so, how common is this problem on 231s. Takeoff distances and climb rates will work for the high-DA operations I expect to see (~7,500' @ 30*C near MGTOW; cruise into the teens but rarely into the FLs). It'll cruise 160-170 at 12gph or I can loaf around in on local flights at around 6gph. XC will be about 20% of the use, virtually all to high DA airports. Local flights and currency will be about 80%. I can get insurance. I will rarely have to top the tanks for the flights that we intend to do. What I need: 1,000lb useful Four usable seats Enough baggage space for light packers Questions: How is the back seat legroom for people >6'? Are there any major gotchas for the 231 with an -LB engine? What are owners seeing as an all-in cost/hr for a 231? Finally, if there is anyone in the Phoenix area willing to go for a demo flight, I'll buy the gas!

I just put an EDM700 with FF into a Bonanza. Expect 10-12hrs of labor on an EDM700, fewer if the mechanic has done a few of them. It's not too bad. If you get the FF feature your IA will need to fab two fuel line segments to accommodate the FF transducer. This isn't a big deal, just know that you'll need to find a home for the transducer that gives enough space upstream and downstream of the transducer (mine is on top of the engine). Your questions: 1 - 10-12hrs 2 - GET THE FF! The EDM700 FF feature comes with a totalizer (I think any FF feature will include a totalizer) 3 - I got a used EDM700 with six EGT+CHT probes with the fuel transducer for < $2000. It works very well. 3a - Get four EGTs and four CHTs. 4 - You can remove and reuse the probes.

Why buy a sports car when all that money could go to a second airplane?

Interesting F model. The SE states get me thinking about corrosion but it might be worth investigating. It's only averaged 27hrs a year since 1992; 39/yr since last overhaul in 1996. That's a lot of sitting in a humid climate. It looks like it was in Illinois until about 2001 when it moved to Georgia. Those nav/comms are great as long as they send and receive. I have the same nav/comms now and have no plans to ever replace them (super cheap to replace if they break). Does the Loran come with a disco ball? The ADF is a so-what, for sure. Excellent advice and I agree wholeheartedly that an airplane should be nearer to the bottom of the list. 1 is done 2 is planned and budgeted 3 is done, but it's a small place 4 is solid; career growth planned and supported by the powers that be 5 is owned outright with a small payment on a second. We'll keep both until they just stop running. 6 is up to date and sufficient 7 is planned but will be reassessed when we get there. Both of our immediate families are 30 mins away, which helps 8 is a want, not a need. We both "want" and "can" now. 9 is a must if you have an 8. At least covered parking. 10 is subject to the max contribution limit. I'm leaning away from a 403b based on advice I've received from financial specialists 11 is a problem. She is a vintage Mustang fan and we don't really want a beach house. What's the alternative method of compliance?! The advice I've received here has me rethinking the partnership. Finding someone with a mission similar to mine who flies about 50-70 hrs/yr would be OK. That would put 100-150hrs a year on the plane which would keep it healthy and we'd still have access to a good XC machine.

Engine is about 1350 smoh in 1998 or so. Prop is a 3-blade with 600ish since 2006 or so. One thing led to another and I ended replacing the lifters during the annual. It has zero internal corrosion and the cams are in great shape. Cyls are original with decent compressions. I'm confident the bottom end will run well past TBO and I expect that the top will last a few hundred as well. I bought it with the expectation that I'd be overhauling at some point. Fortunately, it looks like I'll do that later than sooner...we'll see. As far as the MX contacts go I'm in pretty good shape. Having more contacts is always better, of course. I see your point. As far as playing well with others...maybe you're right. I don't know that jumping into an aircraft partnership is the best way to go about learning those skills, though. What do you mean by "getting off the merry go round?" I'm coming to terms with the idea that a partnership merits reconsideration. It could be a good thing with the right partner. Thank you for the replies.

I'm looking at the E series 35s and early 33s. I don't have any brand loyalty.

All of the responses are helpful! I'm getting a better idea of where the Mooney market sits. I'd join a club if I could be guaranteed reliable access to a respectable XC machine. I would join "Group 3" of this club today if I lived in the area: http://www.lostnation.com/aircraft.php I'll look into selling a kidney.

I agree the kid(s) will be expensive but we've planned for it. The reason for the sale is to round out our down payment on a new home. Selling the Bonanza will push us well beyond the 20% threshold in our price range. I agree that keeping the devil you know is ALWAYS favorable to buying a whole new devil. I've seen enough partnerships go south to have the idea scare me and can just visualize may partner skidding down the runway on the belly or telling me to go pound sand when a major repair is necessary. I've considered selling the Bonanza now and I will certainly sell it before buying again. I'm just trying to figure out how much a workable replacement will cost. So, my wish list will cost >$45k. That's great feedback! Thank you! If I give up the O&N, back off the GPSS (retain a working 2-axis), and tolerate a high time engine (OH fund is already banked), where would you put my chances? EDIT - REPLY TO N601RX (BELOW) and CARUSOAM (above) N601RX - Good point. Speed mods aren't required but I'll certainly take what I can get. The big ones are the cowl and the w/s. CARUSOAM - Thanks for the lesson. The wife loves the plane and hates to see the Bonanza go. I'm actually the one pushing for the "resource reallocation." We're looking for a cheaper plane precisely for the reasons you've listed. The possibility of a C is very real if we can't find an F that fits the bill. We're going to have tall a kid (she's 6'0", I'm 6'3") so leg room really isn't an optional item. The legroom problem is years off, but that leads us back to the "the devil you know" saying. Her family is familiar with light planes. Edited to remove the first paragraph. It came across as aggressive and that's not what I was going for...sorry.

Here's my situation... I am the happy owner of a 1976 V35B. It is an all around wonderful airplane. It's powerful, it's comfortable, it has a good CG (important in the V-tails), I've just done a lot of preventative MX, and it has a working IFR panel though it's a little dated (Collins stack w/dual GS; Apollo GX50 map; stec 30 with alt and GPSS; EDM700 w/gamis). Despite my current ride, I am a Mooney fanatic. I have many hours in a M20F (full 201 conversion) with manual gear/flaps and I loved it. The systems are stone simple. In my book it's one of the best designs out there. Oh...and the IO-360 is bulletproof. Also, there are only four cylinders to top, not six! The wife has decided that starting a family and finding a good house is more important than having an airplane. I'm inclined to agree. I can make the whole thing work if I can find a suitable replacement aircraft for ~$40k, $45k max. Insurance mins aren't an issue. The first piece of advice has been "get a partner." This isn't going to happen. It's an all-or-nothing prospect for me. I can see way too many pitfalls in an aircraft partnership and I'm not willing to take that kind of risk. The second piece of advice has been "rent." This makes the most financial sense. Unfortunately, I'm irrational when it comes to plane ownership. Being able to roll it out and blast off when ever we want is part of the appeal of aircraft ownership. We budget for the fixed expenses and plan for the "worst cases" so plane ownership is more of a lifestyle thing for us. We're willing to give up elsewhere to own. My question is this: Is it reasonable to think I can buy a... a 1967 or 1968 M20F, with manual gear & flaps with a GPS tied to a 2 axis AP with GPSS (preferably an Stec30), with a mid time engine and AD-free prop, with O&N bladders, with a fair-to-good interior and 50' paint, with all logs (old DH with good repairs is acceptable), and a dry climate history with no/minimal corrosion... ...for $40k-$45k? Nav/Comms don't matter to me. In fact, I prefer older radios because (a) they don't break and (b ) if they do, replacements only cost a few hundred bucks. King stack would be nice but isn't a must-have. A waas GPS may be worth paying a little more for but it's not a requirement either. How much does SB208 compliance cost? That would have to happen as part of the pre-buy.

I didn't buy it. It would have been more of a compromise than I'm willing to make. Still lookin'...

Why a "no-buy?"

Prebuy/annual is through Premier in FL. Engine inspection by Mattituck, no new case. Bladders appeal to me becuase they already have the 64gal fittings installed and they're relatively new. Given what's on the market, it doesn't seem like a bad deal. I'm not too worried about the GPS since I carry an iPad with charting software. I did my CFI in an F model (full 201 conv) with no fewer than six G/Us on it and it flew straight and FAST!!! I'm chalking this up to first time buyer nerves. Thanks, yet again, for the input!