craigsteffen

[i'm going to split my typing over a couple of posts; I typed this out this morning and then lost the post because I hadn't kept a copy.] I just joined MAPA, and I got the November issue with me welcome packet a couple of days ago. The accident report is interesting. They ran out of fuel, apparently because the sump drain didn't close properly. The NTSB analysis, and the following article both talk about following the correct procedure, which is to drain the sumps and then check it during the walk-around pre-flight to make sure it's stopped draining. What I find interesting is that section of the pre-flight in the POHs that I have is that it changes depending on the year. In the 1969 and later manuals, the pre-flight section says: 1. Ignition Switch--OFF. Master Switch--ON to check outside lights, then OFF. Fuel Selector Drain--Selector handle on R; pull ring and hold for five seconds. Repeat procedure with selector handle on L. Then there's the instructions for the walk-around check, which includes draining the tank sumps in steps 6 and 8. ...to be continued...

Ok, this is all fine and good, but the real question is, how does a prospective buyer prevent this from happening? Someone earlier in this thread said that the engine hadn't been taken apart and put it back together. Do you know that? If that's the case, I wonder if it ran. One thing I'd definitely want to do before even considering buying an airplane would be to fly it. I wonder if someone there would go flying with a prospective customer? So did anyone happen to go look at it, or some other airplane from this same person or company? So in inspecting something like this, is there a good way to look for immersion damage that's hard to hide? Somewhere in the body or in the wheel wells or something?

test post. I just typed up a very long post that apparently got eaten. Damn it.

Quote: eldeano I think the first thing I would invest in if I were doing a lot of serious IFR is an autopilot or wings leveler.

Quote: eaglebkh My panel was shotgun when I first bought it, and I flew it VFR that way for 2 years. I then had the avionics upgraded and went with the 6-pack before IFR training.

Quote: mooney231 To answer your last question, yes. Certification of aircraft for Day/Night VFR and/or IFR is usually also displayed in the form of a placard. Check AFM Section 2 Limitations to see if there is such a placard. If it's in the AFM, then it is required to be installed in the cockpit in whatever location is stated in the AFM.

Quote: mooney231 Required documents is one of the first things I teach on the first preflight. I teach my students the ARROW acronym to remember which documents are required to be carried on board: Airworthiness Certificate Registration Certificate Radio Operating Permit (international) Operating Limitations (POH/AFM) Weight and Balance information

Quote: mooney231 Many manufacturers interchange these terms by calling their manual a "POH" and inserting all of the AFM material in that document. In short, if the aircraft was manufacturered after March 1, 1979, the AFM is a required document and must be on board any time you operate the aircraft.

Quote: mooney231 In short, if the aircraft was manufacturered after March 1, 1979, the AFM is a required document and must be on board any time you operate the aircraft.

Quote: scottfromiowa This is where the equipment list, weight and balance, STC's recide. Supposed to stay in the aircraft along with the pilot operating handbook specific to year make/model. Logs DON'T have to be in the plane...and shouldn't in my opinion as loss of your logs severly de-values your aircraft.

[i'm not an aeronautical engineer, just my sense of things from a physics background.] Max gross is limited by structural strength of landing gear plus body. The plan has to be able to take a hard landing at full gross without deforming, with proper engineering margins. (For larger airplanes, this is modified by having a max takeoff weight that's bigger than the max landing weight.) Max gross is ALSO limited by the power that the engine can lift. I presume that there's some formula that they use to say that you have to be able to take off with your stated gross weight at so-and-so density altitude, and again with engineering margins. Forward and rear CG considerations are aerodynamic. The farther to the rear the CG is, the less pitch stability the airplane has. Too far to the rear and the plane won't return to its trimmed pitch when the controls are released. That's bad, so there has to be a margin for it. Too far to the front, and the airplane is TOO stable, making it diffiicult for the pilot (or autopilot) to maintain proper climb/decent. This gets worse at high weights, which is why (for many airplanes) the CG envelope has a notch off of the high-weight, most-forward corner. Basically with too far-forward a CG, you don't have the elevator authority to lift the nose for takeoff. Both ends of the CG envelope are strongly dependent in the fine details of the aerodynamics of the whole airplane, particularly the size and position of the control surfaces. For instance, making the elevator bigger or farther aft probably makes the envelope bigger, because you have more elevator authority.

(subscribing myself to updates)

Quote: flight2000 If you have done your IFR training and have a standard scan, having the instruments all over the place will eventually drive you nuts. That's how I ended up with a new panel. I don't think I lasted 10 hours with the old system.

Quote: mooney231 Take a look under the "Kinds of Operations" heading in Section 2 of your AFM. This should define what operations the aircraft is certified for, ie. "Day and Night VFR and IFR."

Hi, I just got my IFR ticket in September, and this year I've become interested in vintage Mooneys. At the moment, if I had a little more cash, I'd try to pick up a 1967 or 1968 M-20F, to have the manual gear and flaps but with the extended body, bigger tanks and increased gross weight. Almost everyone I've seen post here doesn't like the old "shotgun" panel. But I think think the original pre-1970s panel has a certain charm to it. It's like the panel of a Piper Cub (left-rotating tach on the left, magnetic compass in the middle, combination oil pressure/oil temp gauge on the right), utterly unmistakable and unique. Now, I've only flown left seat in an early panel once, with an instructor in the right seat. I've obviously never flown one IFR. I can't think that it would take more than a few hours to get used to the arrangement and then you'd be fine. Anyone who flies IFR in an old-style panel have any opinions? Would you change it if you had the money? Anyone with a 6-pack wish you could go back? Thanks for any thoughts. Craig Steffen (private in 2007, instrument 2010, total hours 130-ish, mostly fly C-172s)

Quote: DaV8or While the avionics are great, it still has the original shotgun layout. It will be changed and I will be posting about I'm sure.

[my background: I'm a fairly new pilot, private 2007, instrument this September, total 130-odd flying hours. Anything I know is from my instruction, my very little flying, and the very large amount I've read over my lifetime about airplanes and flying. So take my opinions with a grain of salt.] Quote: N6784N This whole conversation started when I had a flight instructor in my plane and he said it wasn't legally IFR certified because I only had 1 vor head in the plane but I believe the only time that issue can arise is if I file a flight plan to a airport that is forecast to be IFR 1 hour before and 1 hour after time of arrival then if I file to my alternate and it is forcast the same I would need a different type of approach nav system in the plane like a ADF or IFR/waas GPS. Does anybody have any written far lwas on this?

Quote: rbharvey Hope you didnt send any money to MOA...

I did send a message to MAPA. Someone got back to me right away. They said the event speciflcs for 2011 haven't been finalized. So thanks!

Hi, I'm fairly new to the Mooney world (I fly Cessnas in flying clubs at the moment) but I'm trying to get up to speed. I just joined MAPA and MOA (whose web site and application are really awful). Looking ahead, I'd like to at least try to make it to the big Mooney conention in the fall. I didn't have the vacation to make it to Colorado Springs this past October. Does anyone know where and when the MAPA convention is going to be in 2011? Thanks for any information. Sincerely, Craig Steffen

Great, thanks for all the responses!

Quote: jasong Air Mods @ N87 has an M-20C for rent.

Hello, I'm a fairly new pilot. I got my private in 2007 and got my instrument this fall. I'm flying C-172s from flying clubs at the moment, but I'm looking to buy an airplane in the next few years. I'm really looking at manual gear Mooneys, particularly the M-20F for the increased cabin and seat room. Most enthusiast groups and mailing lists, you can join for free. The MAPA costs $40+ or something? I wrote to them once to ask about a membership, but no one responded. That cost seems pretty expensive for just belonging to the mailing list, and I can't look at list archives to find out what gets posted there, so I can't evaluate if it's worth it. Any thoughts? Thanks for any information. Sincerely, Craig Steffen

Quote: jerry-N5911Q Here are three I know about: Sanford NC a club with two M20J http://wingsofcarolina.org/aircraft

Quote: N57039 Many of us do a LOP mag check in the air and don't bother on the ground. The check under load at higher altitude is a much tougher test of the mags performance.