N513ZM

I have flown both - I reccomend you do the same. I have 6 years and >800 hrs in Ovation2 although I have recently sold mine. I also have ~4hrs in Columbia. You can get a FIKI Ovation - to my knowledge you cannot retrofit an older Columbia. I would buy the Ovation hands down. The only possible negative in this comparison is parts availability for the Mooney.

Quote: DonMuncy <snip> Another problem is geographical. It is a long way for the California folks and the east coast ones to come to mid Texas. Every chance I get, I remind Trey that we need to spread it arond more. I thought it was very good to go to Colorado Springs, although it didn't do much for Florida pilots. Several years ago, we went to Chatanooga, and I noticed several people attended who don't come to Texas. There is no way to solve this problem, but every 3rd or 4th year on the east or west cost would not kill me. And there are a lot of middle ground, such as St. Louis or Kansas City. But one of the larger problems is the one you point out, the "outsider/insider" feelings. There are two sides to this. The first time I went, I saw a bunch of folks with a string of patches or the like that indicated they had been coming for a long, long time. I'm just insensitive enough I kept interjecting myself into groups until I kinda consider myself part of it. However, that does not excuse us from not making every effort to REALLY, REALLY try to make new people welcome. There is a great tendency to get with your friends and renew your relationships with them, but I would urge all of us to make the extra effort to include new faces. Especially the young ones. Perhaps there may be some additional steps that could be taken to officially encourage this. Maybe some activity at the ice cream social that involves pairing up with randomly drawn names. Norma and I have consistently tried to pick a table at the banquet to sit with people we haven't previously known. I can't remember whether you and Byron were included in the group of Mooneyspace people who got together last year (or was it two years ago) to go eat at the Cowboy Steakhouse one evening. In any event, if anyone has any ideas on how to help this "inclusion" plan, post it, and/or notify Trey. I can assure you that no one I have run across at MAPA has ever indicated a desire to keep anyone out.

Quote: jetdriven What I dont get is why Trey doesnt post here.

The big difference between MAPA and the other organizations is that MAPA is privately owned and for profit - the ABS and COPA and CPA and MMOPA and AYA etc are member owned and operated. That is a HUGE difference.

Quote: DaV8or Thanks again for the story. Maybe you can move somewhere sunnier someday.

I'd like to add that I remember the departure decision as being one where conditions just didn't look that bad. I'm not a daredevil - I'm actually pretty cautious and have often made decisions to cancel or postpone a trip or to divert due to wx - including icing. The point I'm making is the unpredicatble nature of ice from one minute to the next. The most important factors I look at is how widespread is the forecast icing and how low is the freezing level and clouds. That with a supply of PIREPS is usually a very good indicator of what a trip will be like. The real learning experience for me in the story I related was not how qucikly the ice could accrete, or how the airplane handled, etc - but the fact that there are pieces of airspace where you may not have the escape route or bolt hole you think you have due to ATC restrictions. In those conditions the E word can be the only way out. You can be assured that after that experience I looked at flyng that departure corridor in icing conditions differently. I have been in cruise at FL170 west of LHY, headed east where when I began picking up ice I was uncomfortable with and asked for and recieved lower. The ice actually increased as I descended and was worse through FL150 so I asked for and was given clearance to take it all the way down to FL110. At FL12.5 I came out the bottom and all the excitement ended. I've made many a trip that I wouldn't have been able to make without TKS, many more without FIKI, and the TKS gave me a sense of assurance and confidence that would otherwise have been lacking. But I've probably made several trips I simply should not have made simply because of that very same sense of assurance. Its a great thing, just use carefully.

So I'll tell a story… this is from memory so if anyone has a copy of an email post I made contemporaneously to mooney, mooney-tech or longbody-mooney@aviating.com that differs in some details please forgive my aging neurons. Couple of years ago I was heading back to Cincinnati from Bridgeport CT. Leaving KBDR and heading west through PA, pretty much the only route you will get is KBDR-BHVN5-CMK-SAX-V249-SBJ-V30-ETX-V162-HAR-DIRECT. It's climb to 6000 out of BDR, up to 7000 once past KHPN and up to 8000 once over the Hudson River. The route is essentially a big left hook around the NYC Class B and ATC is very constrained in the altitudes and lateral routes they can give you due to the arrival corridors for KHPN, KLGA, KTEB and KEWR. Once you've crossed the river and until you get past KMMU you are in a virtual tunnel that extends from 6000 to 8000 and a couple miles on either side of the route. During a push (rush hour) ATC has to move heaven and earth to respond to any unusual requests. Once you are past KMMU and turned right towards KABE things ease up and when handed off to Allentown Approach they are very accommodating re altitude and course. It was January I think, 3 or 4 years ago and in the early morning during the push. PIREPS were being posted for light to moderate icing between 3000 and 7000 along my route of flight but the reports seemed spotty with holes in them (areas of non icing) and I figured I would be above it. The tops were being called around 7000. Seemed doable - a 30 minute slog and then freedom as the wx cleared west of NY metro. Out of KBDR with TKS primed on the ground, I was in the clouds by 2000' or so and I began accreting ice abeam KHPN. In an out of the clouds in layers, I would get ice, no ice, cloud, no cloud but once I was climbed to 8000 I was still in the clouds (so much for the tops report) TKS on high, and the ice became constant and began accreting very rapidly. Within 2 or 3 minutes I had at least an inch of shiny clear ice on my leading edge and the TKS was clearly being overwhelmed. I had no way of knowing how widespread this icing region was but I could hear multiple reports of ice - some of them using the word "severe", on the frequency. I motored on, my heart beating faster and palms getting sweaty as I waited what seemed like an hour to get a word in edgewise on the frequency. Finally I grabbed a moment and managed to squeak out : "Mooney 3ZM, in moderate to severe icing, I need a climb immediately". The response was (pardon the pun) chilling: "unable, stand by". Another few minutes passed and I had lost about 15KIAS and had a LOT of ice all over the plane. I was afraid to look back at the tail feathers and held the yoke lightly trying to feel for any "snatch" from a tail stall and trying to talk my brain into staying calm. I was talking to myself out loud, talking myself thru what to do if I stalled, what I could do, where I could go. Finally, after what seemed like forever ATC came back to me and asked if I was still in icing conditions. I replied I was and that I needed higher immediately. I think the controller could hear the rising panic in my voice and she came back right away with a climb to 9000. I was climbing before she finished talking, but 9000 wasn't too much better. The ice seemed less severe, but I was getting thrown around something fierce and the airplane had a sloppy feel to it. I could see I was in or near the tops, the clouds were lighter above me. "NY, 3ZM, this isn't much better, I'm going to need higher and I need it right now". Again: "Unable higher, let me see what I can do". She cam back shortly and offered me a climb to 10,000 if I would accept a vector to LHY (a right turn). You betcha! At 9400 or 9500 I broke out into the sunshine and began breathing again. It took 15 or 20 minutes before the TKS could get rid of all that ice. Now for questions about approaches - I have been fairly lucky in that I've never had to shoot an approach in heavy icing conditions. Most of the time I would get ice in the descent or on a segment of the flight plan leading to the approach and the TKS pretty much had take care of things before the FAF. There have been one or two exceptions but on both I broke out relatively high and landed with 1/2 flaps and 10 KIAS extra speed. Anytime I encountered ice in the last 30 minutes of flight I would land with 1/2 flaps and extra speed, just in case. I have not had to make a no flaps landing due to ice on approach - yet - but I am prepared and have practiced no flap landings to make sure I was comfortable with the different sight picture, the extra speed and driving it onto the runway. I want to say that in the 5 years and hundreds of flights I made back and forth from Cincinnati to Bridgeport, my tolerance for dangerous wx initially went up and then gradually went way down. By the time I stopped commuting I had no more stomach for ice flights as I have described above. The most dangerous aspect of FIKI systems on Mooneys is not pump failure or electrical failure etc. It's the fact that you are likely to make flights in a FIKI airplane that you would not otherwise make. Be careful, be cautious, be chicken. While there is no official determination yet the TBM 850 that crashed in NJ on 12/20/11 sounds very much like an icing accident that killed 5 people including 2 children. Need I mention that the TBM 850 has 700-850 SHP? And is a FIKI airplane (boots). So much for climbing to safety… So some SOPs of mine - YMMV and I don't recommend these practices to anyone - this is simply how I fly my FIKI Ovation2. Prime on the ground if icing conditions are expected enroute. TKS on low before entering clouds. Titrate fluid flow as needed - low, high, off. I always play a mental game of conserving TKS fluid as much as possible in the first half of a flight and as I get closer to destination I use it more freely (if available). Anything more than light rime, I hand fly. I'm always watching the wings, tail and ASI. Loss of 5KIAS gets my attention. Loss of 10KIAS and I'm changing something - altitude, course etc. ALWAYS leave an out. Needless to say, ice flying is somewhat stressful. You never know when conditions may change for the worse (see story above). And yes, I'm aware that inadvertent ice systems come with some of the goodies - I wasn't sure if that included the spray bar or the light. I stand corrected. Be safe. Be humble. Nature is bigger than a Mooney.

Quote: astelmaszek Mike, I'm still learning so much about IFR flying. Can you describe in a bit more detail that TKS was being overwhelmed? Weather, time of the year, cruise/climb/descent? How does the airplane behave? Do you use any flaps on landing even with TKS keeping up? Andy P.S. All Bravos come with a dual alternator. The only thing you're missing with FIKI is second set of pumps on a Bravo. My is non-FIKI and has the heated stall vane.

As someone who has flown a FIKI Ovation2 through some of the worst icing real estate in the country (OH, PA, NY, CT in the lee of the Great Lakes) for 5+ years I feel qualified to comment on some of the previous comments on this thread. Turbocharging - It's great, a nice to have, probably a necessity in the mountains but its not a substitute for TKS. I wouldn't use TC to climb thru icing conditions w/o TKS and I haven't needed TC to escape icing conditions with TKS. And I have flown a LOT of ice. The combo of TC AND FIKI is awesome but FIKI and an IO550 works just fine. You just have to use a bit more smarts and finesse - you can't just bull your way higher if you are already at FL170. End of story. FIKI vs Inadvertent - with FIKI you get more than just a 2nd TKS pump. 2nd Alternator, heated stall vane, 2nd pump, windshield spray bar, ice light and legal cover for possible foolish decisions that you live thru. Priceless. FIKI TKS on a Mooney works great as long as there is fluid in the tank and the panels are weeping said fluid. I have many hours flying my 560nm x/c commute in the flight levels during the winter. It's an incredible tool and one that needs to be approached with a measure of humility and caution. I have had numerous occasions where I encountered icing that accreted quicker than the TKS could handle - I lived. I have also had numerous occasions where I judged it perfectly ok to motor on in conditions where the TKS was easily handling light rime. It's a constant judgement call game. YMMV. At the end of the day, however, I live by this prayer: "thy sky is so vast and my plane is so small" - a bit of humility is needed when trying to outsmart Mother Nature.. Good luck on your search, Devon. I'm sure you'll come across a plane that fits your profile.

Quote: dpmatsalla Hi everybody, <snip> I need to buy a FIKI Mooney that will let me fly to see my family on weekends, even during Canadian winters. I'm not too picky about avionics, so long as it will let me fly IFR (i.e. WAAS) approaches. I'm not too picky about the paint or the interior either (within reason). A turbo would be nice, but not essential. Of course, I'd prefer low engine times, but I could be convinced to do an overhaul, so long as I can fit it all in within my budget... $180k. Any other OH work (i.e. prop, turbo, etc) would also have to fit into this budget. So, I've been looking around, and there's not a huge number out there, so I thought I'd try out Mooneyspace. So, does anybody know of any M20Ks, M20Ms or M20Rs that are for sale that would fit my price-range? Please help out a fellow Mooney-lover!! Thanks! Devon (formerly C-FZVQ)

Griswold CT - N04 (now closed) - 1863' Goodspeed CT - 42B - 2120' Saluda VA - W75 - 2270' All in a J

FIKI also requires dual alternators.

Quote: Jfinch Last Friday when I landed at my home airport, after a GPS approach that put me in the clouds with light icing for about 15 minutes, the lineman noticed "smoke" coming out of my cowling. I went over to inspect and indeed there was a very light (thin) "smoke" eminating from the cowling. It didn't smell like electrical or oil or rubber burning........it had a funny smell that I didn't recognize. The freezing level was about 2,000' that day, and PIREPS were reporting light to moderate rime in the clouds; tops were 4,600' and bases about 2,900'. Appraoch cleared me to 4,000 and kept me there for about 10 minutes vectoring me around our larger regional airport here. I primed the TKS about 80 miles out, on high pump mode; then I turned it on high again just before entering the clouds, then back to normal. After a couple minutes, I noticed a little ice building up on the leading edge of the wings, so I put the pump back on high setting for a couple minutes........when the ice dissappeared then I switched back to normal. After I broke out and had the runway in sight and knew I would be clear of clouds for the rest of the flight, I turned the TKS system off. I'm thinking the "smoke" was excess TKS fluid that accumulated in the cowling and dripped down onto the muffler or other hot parts while taxiing in, and that produced the "smoke". Has anyone else had this experience, or any advice? Thanks.

Quote: N513ZM I wonder if he had a survivable case but poor technique And tried to keep climbing when he should have just gone below the icing layer. They are capable planes but they'll stall just like anything else. Fly/drive safe.

Quote: Parker_Woodruff I wonder if he had a survivable case but poor technique And tried to keep climbing when he should have just gone below the icing layer. They are capable planes but they'll stall just like anything else. Fly/drive safe.

As others have touched upon, this is a wiring issue and also may be an issue related to the KI-525. I own a 2000 Ovation 2 with the KFC225. As previously mentioned the KFC225 is a full DIGITAL AP with BUILT-IN GPSS. However the first few (not sure of how many but some number) planes fitted with this AP and the GNS430 by the factory were mis-wired. How do I know? The factory told my avionics tech this years ago when I had my 430s upgraded to WAAS and the plane was still unable to fly a holding pattern on the approach. My plane was equipped with a Sandel EFIS with auto-slew so I would get some measure of turn anticipation that masked the problem at first. However in trying to sort out the holding issue we discovered that an additional wire was required (left out in the install) that would allow the AP to talk digitally to the HSI/EFIS instead of analog. Once the wire was added it works perfectly. Couple years later I replaced the Sandel with an Aspen and that introduced an interesting luxury problem - there are now 2 devices with GPSS and 2 modes in which to use it! You can leave GPSS turned off on the Aspen and fly using the GPSS in the AP - I find this more intuitive so this is the mode I use. Or, you cen enable GPSS on the Aspen and in that case you fly with the AP in HDG mode all the time - this works fine but I prefer the other method.

Quote: 201er While we're at it, what kind of performance loss you notice with varying levels of icing?

Quote: carusoam Joe, Just a guess, it looks like the same effort required to install one on a J, only bigger. This is done from the outside and fairly intrusive. Are you familiar? Rivets come out, sheet metal strip is removed at the bottom, the the old one comes out. Installing is in the reverse, ending with repaint the effected areas. Best regards, -a-

I'm a possible as well - where and when dependant... Mike N513ZM (KBDR)

Quote: 231flyer The flight home was great. Got Miami center right off MYAT and easy approach to Fort Pierce. The customs and immigration folks were great. Friendly and efficient. On pulling onto the customs ramp one of the agents came over and looked inside the plane. Satisfied he asked us not to offload our bags and bring them to the customs bldg. The immigration process took less than 5 minutes and we were sitting down to lunch within 15 minutes of landing. Both the entry and exit process at MYAT were a breeze too. Highly recommend the flight.

Quote: rocketman From Kelly Aerospace is a new electric De-icing system certified for Columbia and Cirrus. The concept of a heated electric graphite pad that can be bonded to the leading edges of the Mooney wing seems like a simpiler, less corrosive, and less costly alternative than the TKS system. I don't know much about Kelly Aerospace, but if the certification process is not too difficult and the install numbers work out, I would think that there would be enough after market plane owners willing to make the purchase. http://www.kellyaerospace.com/thermalsystems/thermawing_aircraft_deice.html

Quote: astelmaszek Mike, How do you get your ovation to slow down to 100knots on downwind before dropping the gear? I seem to be entering the patern, straight and level and still doing about 130knots with my power at 20"/2400". Unless I yank the power all the way back (bad for my expensive engine), unless I drop the gear, I see 130knots. Andy

Quote: Parker_Woodruff you getting something else? You sure have a nice plane...

Quote: orangemtl Strange; I've been taught to do so by two serial instructors, including a former Mooney factory pilot. By the time I reach the nos. I'm at 85.

Quote: jetdriven Looks like there is room for two holes. Nice job though. How much does it lower the CHT on #5?