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Good point. I have easy access to ethanol free fuel but, it's only 89 octane and it costs about the same as Avgas.

Here you go.

I'm reading the POH for the M20C and it says that the engine uses 91/98 octane fuel. Obviously the 110 octane AVgas is good but, what about 93 octane Mogas? It's above the 91 octane minimum... I don't mind buying Avgas, it's really more convenient than hauling in cans of Mogas, but in a pinch it would be nice to have the option.

So I decided against a B and made a deal on a C today instead. [emoji846] Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

I'll be honest, if a seller said that to me, I'd either want a SIGNIFICANT discount or I'd just walk away. It would make me think they're hiding something if they won't let me take it to a shop that has all the appropriate tools to fully inspect the plane. I would feel the same way if I was looking at a car and someone told me the only way a mechanic could look at it was if they came to the seller's garage, which doesn't have a lift. I'm glad that wasn't the case with this one, we just agreed on a price that I think is very fair. This is going to be fun! Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

So I went and looked at the plane this morning and the seller was super accommodating. I didn't bring any tools but he had a screwdriver and opened everything we asked to see inside and then let both me and the CMEL/CFI I brought with me fly it briefly, even letting the CMEL/CFI land the plane, he probably would have let me land it also, I didn't feel comfortable with my low hours though. I talked with him about a PPI and he's willing to bring it to my A&P of choice so I'm going to make an offer on it. This was my first time flying a Mooney and I have there is no comparison to the Cherokee, 172s and Champs I've flown in the past. I really liked the seat configuration and how tight the controls are, it really felt like going from my F450 into my old BMW 335 with M3 suspension upgrade, just no comparison at all. I'm really looking forward to learning this aircraft and building some time in it. I'll probably add an EDM-900 to it and update the GPS but otherwise the avionics are serviceable for what I want to do with it.

He bought a new one. It flies 300 miles at least twice a week, in fact Flight Aware shows it made one today. Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Thanks. I like to ask open ended questions and then shut up. I've found that a lot of people are uncomfortable with silence and if I don't break it, they'll just keep going and say more than they intended. I definitely don't want to dissect anybody's plane, I don't have the skills to really know what I'm looking at. I also don't want to wait several weeks to get it into a shop for a PPI and spend $2k when there's obvious corrosion that could have been seen by taking out 4 screws. On cars it's easy, I show up with a scanner and read the computer. I don't have the tools to do that with a plane though. The logs are good and thorough, annuals don't show a lot of repairs but, stuff is getting fixed in between. It's being flown at least a couple of times a week, which was one of the reasons I want to go see it. I was looking at another one but when I got the logs, it was really close to TBO and hasn't moved in 2 years. Even though that one has a better avionics stack, that was enough to scratch it off the list. I don't want a project. Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

If only, I'm making the trip in a 172... Better than driving but, it definitely won't be Mooney time. Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the feedback. I'm flying 200 miles to look at this so hopefully, that makes me a serious enough buyer to get a little bit of a ride. I don't want to fly it myself, but I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive, seems like it should be the same with a plane in some form? Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

I've reviewed the logs. I agree about not bothering to make the trip until doing so. Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

I'm going to go look at a C tomorrow to see if I want to put an offer on it. I'm taking a commercial pilot with a lot more experience than me along to help me look it over and see if it flies right. Should I bring any tools along to open a few access panels and look for corrosion, or would that be too much before an offer and PPI? If it seems reasonable, what tools should I have? Would a good socket set be enough or are there some specialty things I should have?

I wish I'd seen this before today, I would have probably paid a deposit to give me some time to get up there and look at it. This is a real deal and the paint really doesn't look bad in the pics. I'm going to look at a C Saturday morning and we're trying to setup a time to go look at a B as well but, I'm having a hard time getting any logs from the seller. I'd like to at least see the last few years worth before flying an hour to look at something. There was another C on my list also, it's at 1800 SMOH though and when I looked at the logs and FlightAware, it hasn't moved in 2 years so that's a no for me. I would be willing to risk the hours on something that was flying regularly but high hours and not flying sounds like more of a project than something to fly. I already have too many projects.

I'm doing GUMPS anytime we get ready to do any maneuvers, right now Undercarriage is Flaps. Later it can be Flaps and Gear. Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

I've been talking to Parker about insurance. I expect insurance to be an issue until I build some hours, which is why this one piqued my interest. At this price point, as long as I can get liability coverage to keep my Umbrella carrier happy, I don't absolutely need to get coverage for the hull.

Good input, thank you. My dad was also career AF, flying tankers for 22 years. After retirement, he went to work at Flight Safety and was a type instructor for the Falcon 10, G200, G350 and PL-24, only recently retiring. I spent a decent amount of time with him in the SIM for the Falcon and the G350, almost all of it landings because that's the fun part. I fully get that the SIM is not a real plane but, if you've never experienced these SIMs, they're as close as you can get. They have a full motion base that will actually produce enough G force to push you back in your seat on takeoff, the only real giveaway was the graphics weren't all that great out front but, these were instrument aircraft so that wasn't all that important. He's the guy that usually talks me out of bad aviation ideas and his only objection to this one was financial. I'm not considering this because I think it'll be cheaper though. One thing to keep in mind is that even if I go look at it tomorrow, by the time a PPI is done and the deal is finished, it would be at least a couple of weeks before I would be flying the plane. That assumes there's nothing that needs to be fixed and I would be very surprised if that turned out to be the case, so more realistically probably a month, maybe longer. I'm now flying 2-3 days a week, at least 2 hours per lesson. I started with 1 hour flight lessons and found shorter lessons didn't really give me enough time to pick up new skills. About the time something was starting to click, it was time to head back to the airport. My point being that by the time I could actually fly the B, I would be at least 20ish hours in, not that 20 hours is a lot compared to the 22k my dad has but, it is twice as many as 10. What I was really asking more than anything was if there are specifics to these vintage Mooneys that I should be looking for? I know corrosion is an issue for some and I assume everything mentioned in the current post about the C would apply to a B as well. Are there other things that are specific to the B though? Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

In the scenario I framed that statement in anything is expendable to me. Save the thing or the people I'm always choosing the people, I don't care what the thing is, the people are always more valuable to me. That doesn't mean I see the thing as having no value or disposable, it just means that in my order of priorities, it's never going to be at the top of the list. I find it kind of funny that I readily admit from the beginning that there is a chance I could bend stuff and that's seen as anything other than self-awareness or humility though. The thing you're most put of by is essentially me saying I'm aware I don't have the skills to be assured I won't mess something up, if that's not self-awareness, then maybe I don't understand what you mean by that. Bottom line is that I'm going to be very difficult to insure at this point regardless of the plane I choose, even a Cessna 152 would be tough. All I'm really trying to do is maximize my training time by spending it learning what I plan to fly instead of having to duplicate a lot of work later in a transition. If I'm going to be in a Mooney, what's the point of putting a ton of effort into learning something else if the option to learn with what I want to be flying in is available? Especially if I have that option with the built in safety net of a CFI sitting next to me? Speaking of the CFI, I made it a point to choose a CFI that had real flying experience, not a freshly minted guy building hours so he can get his commercial. I want to fly/learn with someone that actually understands the workload in planes other than trainers so that I can learn from his experience now instead of making my own expensive mistakes later. I flew with several before I chose one with 1700 hours, that is type rated in the Phenom 300 and Honda Jet and has flown corporate jets. I feel confident in him being able to help me with everything that's required in flying a complex plane and it just seems smart to take full advantage of that resource from the start. I guess I should have explicitly stated it but my goal to learn in, and love, the B while I have it and pass it on in better condition than I got it in. That seemed so obvious to me that I didn't think it really needed to be. I try to do that with everything but, I also don't go into anything believing nothing bad can or will happen. Part of the evaluation has to be what's the worst case here and can I live with that if it happens and that's all the statement was meant to convey. I'm sorry it struck you otherwise. I do appreciate your input though, thanks for taking the time to share it.

At the end of the day, they're all just expendable things. The most important and valuable part of any aircraft are the people sitting inside it so if it comes to sacrificing the thing and saving the people, I'll make that choice every time over someone getting hurt and the plane living to fly another day. What I mean when I say "I'll fix it and move on" is that is that if something were to happen, even if it got totaled, it wouldn't be financially ruinous and so I'm willing to take the risk of flying it without hull insurance, not that I don't care about breaking it. Obviously, the goal is to never break anything but, sometimes things happen and it's a lot more likely that they'll happen when I'm a low hour pilot than when I have several thousand hours in the seat. For that reason, I see some advantage to knowing that if I buy something now, I'm going to have someone more skilled than me in the right seat more often than not for the next 30+ hours to help prevent things from happening vs buying after I have my license, getting a few hours of transition training and being on my own after that.

I could afford the Bravo now, insurance would be the trick. Plus, I would constantly be worried I was going to bend something. With this B, if it gets bent, I can just fix it and move on, I won't have so much invested in it that I'll be worried about it, which means I'll be more relaxed flying it and less likely to bend something. Funny how that works out...lol I started out with a 172 and have spent the last 3 hours in a Cherokee. I like the Cherokee a LOT better, I really just like the way the low wing handles vs the high wing during takeoff and landing. I think the ground effect is increased and it makes landing smoothly easier. I really like the way you have to pop the low wing out of ground effect when you take off, it makes it feel like you're literally leaping off the runway. It took me a couple of takeoffs to figure out that I needed to be more deliberate about pulling the yoke back initially, once I did though things got more fun.

My personal umbrella will force me to get liability, whether I want to or not. I would even if they didn't though, it's just silly not to. I've flown in both STEAM and mostly glass cockpits now and to be completely honest, I find it a lot easier to scan the STEAM gauges and keep my head out of the cockpit. With the glass, there's so much information in such a small space that I spend a lot of time trying to decipher what I'm looking at. I know it'll get easier with time but for now, the STEAM gauges reduce my workload and make it easier for me to pay attention to everything else.

I'm about 10 hours into my PPL training, planning to go straight into instrument when I finish this and an ultimate goal of getting into a 252 or a Bravo. I'm shopping half-heartedly right now just to get a feel for what pricing is in the market and how quickly they sell when I came across this little gem - https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/215941843/1961-mooney-m20b-piston-single-aircraft Now in thinking this might be a great trainer for me as it's inexpensive enough I could easily pay cash and not stress out about self-insuring it to build up time in a Mooney so the insurance companies will hopefully feel better about insuring a more expensive 252 or Bravo when I get there. The TTAF seems really low to me for the vintage, which could be good or bad, and the engine is pretty fresh. I think there are enough avionics in it already to be able to use this for my Instrument training, although I'm not sure if it's got ADS-B out. I'm thinking I could get a couple hundred hours in this and then start to seriously shop for my lifetime plane. Anyway, what to do you guys think? Anyone know anything about this plane in particular? Are there specific things to this model I should be looking for? I'm only about a 1.5 hour drive from GMAX and 45 minutes from Kerrville so it's not a big deal to go look at it, in fact Bulverde is only a 15 minute flight from my flight school and in fairly confident I could easily convince my CFI to pop over with me during a lesson to take a look at it. What do I not know to be asking and/or considering here? Forget the financial side of it, while I could make a case for buying being cheaper than renting, it's not really about that. There's lot of toys here that I could technically rent cheaper, I just like owning stuff and being able to use it on my schedule. Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Yeah, I'm expecting insurance to be expensive initially and hopefully decrease over time. I wonder sometimes if after a gear up if it wouldn't be cheaper in the long run to just fix it out of pocket and never tell the insurance it happened. I imagine they would probably find out anyway from the NTSB or FAA reporting. Maybe if it didn't cost them anything they would be more lenient about it though. Probably not, insurance companies generally suck...

I wasn't happy the day I sold any of my boats either. Life had just changed and they were being neglected. Like an airplane, the worst thing you can do to one is not use it.

This is just like boats, there's no such thing as the perfect boat, there's just the least objectionable compromise.

Done, thank you!