frcabot

I'm curious, do you have a link to this?

Whiteman is fine. It's gated all around so there's no issue, and the price is right.

Hi Folks, I figured I'd start a new thread to get these specific questions answered since the other thread was getting long and a bit off topic. (http://mooneyspace.com/topic/16913-engine-failure) To sum up: I own a Mooney M20J The engine has 2100 tach hours SMOH (which is also the total time on engine). It is an IO-360-A3B6D (dual mag) Bottom end was torn down approximately 430 hours ago after previous owner suffered a prop strike. While it wasn't a complete bottom overhaul apparently, it seemed like a comprehensive inspect & repair job. The log entry reads as follows: "Disassemble engine & inspect for prop strike. Magnaflux crankshaft & all steel parts. Zyglo case. Check for hidden damage. Counter weights worn. Replace rod nuts & bolts. Replace main & rod bearings. Replace seals, gaskets & c.w parts. Magneto inspection. See listed parts. All current AD's complied with. Reassemble engine, ready for installation." Top was overhauled approximately 1040 tach hours ago. The Bakersfield mechanic (where the plane is stuck at the moment) says he doesn't consider it an overhaul because the valves were merely "reconditioned" instead of replaced, but I'm skeptical. The log entry reads as follows: "Removed all cylinders and performed top overhaul. New pistons and rings installed. Valves and seats reconditioned. New gaskets and hardware used as needed." Other stuff too like spark plugs services, oil change, new fuel hose, cleaned fuel nozzles, etc. Despite getting an annual inspection in September, I suffered an engine failure a couple weeks ago when an valve broke off and got sucked into the #3 cylinder. At annual, the engine got a clean bill of health and the compressions were 70+ all around. The plane is stuck in Bakersfield with a mechanic I'm not really familiar with. The mechanic stated that there was a lot of aluminum in the oil filter, which is expected since a valve broke off and circulated through. He says he doesn't feel comfortable just pulling the #3 cylinder and replacing it and thinks I need a major overhaul instead. There is the possibility of hidden damage but he hasn't found any other than to the #3 cylinder piston and the aluminum in the filter. Given the high time on engine SMOH, I am leaning towards overhauling the engine (but still could be persuaded otherwise). I've narrowed the overhaul down to two options: The first is Corona Engines in Corona, CA. The price is about $18.6K for a total overhaul. Does anyone know much about them? It seems like they are a pretty professional shop, though, and the price is right. As an added bonus, because they are close they've offered to pick up the engine. That price includes overhauled cylinder (shop says they recommend "fresh ground oversize cylinders," or otherwise plated nickel or chrome, and I'd have the say on any of those options. The price for new cylinders is $23,776 The second choice is Air Power, for a factory overhauled engine. The price is $29,647 (overhauled) or $33,047 (for rebuilt zero time) It would actually be an exchange, as they would replace the A3B6D for an A3B6, with two single mags instead of a dual mag. This increases reliability. This also includes new roller tappets. I believe both options include new cylinders rather than overhauled cylinders. Round trip freight is an extra $1000, bringing the prices to $30.7K and $34.0K. As you can see, even with new cylinders, there is a significant difference in price. Questions: Given the bottom teardown and top overhaul, and the high time SMOH (2100 hours), does it make more sense to simply replace the #3 cylinder or do an overhaul? I may need to find a new mechanic if I simply pull the cylinder as the Bakersfield mechanic doesn't sound comfortable. Or at least I'd have to get a second opinion. Does anyone know any reliable mechanics in the Bakersfield area who can give a second opinion? Has anyone ever used / heard of Corona Engines? Does it make more sense to go with: Replace #3 cylinder only? $18.6K Corona overhaul with overhauled cylinders (but no new roller tappets and keep dual mag system)? $23.7K Corona overhaul with new cylinders (but no new roller tappets and keep dual mag system)? $30.7K Factory overhaul with roller tappets, new cylinders, and upgrade to A3B6 (two single mags)? $34.0K Factory Rebuilt zero time engine and upgrade to A3B6 (two single mags)?

FYI I got the logbook entry for the top as well. ~1040 tach hours ago: "Removed all cylinders and performed top overhaul. New pistons and rings installed. Valves and seats reconditioned. New gaskets and hardware used as needed." Other stuff too like spark plugs services, oil change, new fuel hose, cleaned fuel nozzles, etc. The Bakersfield mechanic said it wasn't a "top overhaul" because the valves were merely "reconditioned" instead of replaced. Seems like a pretty small distinction to me, but since there are valve problems and all...

Thank you for your kind words. I don't think I'm a hero, but I think I did my job as I as I was trained to do it. So props to my flight instructors. Our training really does work. If anything, I actually feel a little safer in the air now. I've always told myself that an engine failure is survivable, but now I've lived through it and proven to myself it's true. I think I will be much more cautious about flying at night or in low IFR, though. The engine continued to produce partial power, but not enough to sustain altitude. It was enough to extend glide, and the engine failed a few miles short of the airport. I was at 11K feet though at 160KTS TAS when the engine problems began, so even though I was 25 miles away from Bakersfield airport, I have quite a bit of speed to bleed off to get to best glide. Mooneys, fortunately, are very aerodynamic and so I was able to get a lot closer while remaining at 11K feet or thereabout. If I had been slower or lower, it would have been a tougher call, and I would have considered a field landing.

Thanks, I'll reach out.

Overhauled cylinders only and overhauled everything else. New factory cylinders are available but that brings the price up $5K.

Just have the bottom entry log for now. It's cryptic and I've asked the shop (One Stop Aviation in CA) to send me the work order. Basically, it sounds like the bottom was torn open and repaired as necessary, but not overhauled to new limits. Parts that didn't need to be replaced or overhauled, such as the camshaft for example, weren't. "Disassemble engine & inspect for prop strike. Magnaflux crankshaft & all steel parts. Zyglo case. Check for hidden damage. Counter weights worn. Replace rod nuts & bolts. Replace main & rod bearings. Replace seals, gaskets & c.w parts. Magneto inspection. See listed parts. All current AD's complied with. Reassemble engine, ready for installation." I'll ask the mechanic for the top entry.

The quote I am getting from Corona Engines, for a major overhaul to new limits (not a field OH) is less than $20K (about $18.5K, to which I have to add some CA sales tax). That includes a 2 year or 500 hour warranty, whichever comes first. That's a pretty significant difference between the price of a Lycoming factory overhaul. With Corona, it sounds like it's several thousand dollars more to convert to an A3B6D with the two single mags, so I'm not inclined to do that if I go with them. The single mags may be an improvement over the dual mag, but I don't know that it's a $4K or $5K improvement.

Thanks to you and all the others who have posted. The nice thing to know is that our pilot training does work if we stay calm and fly the plane.

Thanks Matt, I'll give them a ring! It sounds like it may be 1-2 months before I can finish the trip, though. :-(

Received more info. While I thought I remembered that the plane had a bottom overhaul ~400 hours ago, that doesn't seem to be the case. Instead, it was a bottom "repair" after the previous owner suffered a prop strike. So the broken items were repaired, but not everything in a bottom overhaul was done. For example, it doesn't look like the camshaft was overhauled/replaced as in a typical overhaul. Moreover, although I don't have the logs to verify, the mechanic tells me that the top "overhaul" from ~1000 hours ago also wasn't a full overhaul. It doesn't look like the valves, for example, were replaced. Given this information, I'm feeling more confident that a major overhaul to new limits is the way to go given the high time on engine. If I do a top overhaul now and a bottom overhaul a year from now, I still have an engine with 2000+ hours SMOH, which is going to affect the resale value pretty significantly (not that I'm expecting to sell it anytime soon, but still...). What are some recommendations for OH shops? Has anyone used Corona Engines?

Don't really know since I'm not there to see it. He said a "significant amount." I think some would be expected from the piston damage but one would expect it to hopefully be flushed out through the oil system.

Made an immediate turn to the airport and descended very gradually. I was actually very high on the approach and had to do some S turns to lose altitude to not overshoot the runway. Better than being too low, though.

Well, mechanic told me there is a significant amount of aluminum in the oil filter (probably from the piston) and he feels the engine needs to come off and be overhauled. So there it is.So, back to my original question. What are some good overhaul shops for a Lycoming IO-360-A3B6D?The pricing of Corona Engines looks pretty competitive even with California sales tax (I was quoted about $18,500 or so).http://www.coronaengines.com/Engine-Overhaul Has anyone ever used them?

Sorry, to be clear the choices were simply replacing the cylinder (with a new one) or overhauling the whole engine.

To be honest I'm not totally sure. The engine has never had a major overhaul, that I know. The engine has just about 2100 hours on it now, plus or minus 1. I think the bottom overhaul repair was about 450 hours ago and the top "overhaul" (?) was about 1000 hours ago. No idea if the valves were new but I'd imagine they're be replaced as part of the top overhaul (Edit: apparently valves were not replaced). I didn't own the plane when the overhauls were done so I don't know exactly what was done as part of that process. I'd have to check the log entries and they're in the plane.

Just got a call from mechanic. Apparently pretty catastrophic loss of number 3 cylinder. Mechanic said it looked like the cylinder had "swallowed" a valve, whatever that means, and that it was "beat up inside." The engine was 2100 SMOH but had mid-life top and bottom overhauls. And the annual inspection in August noted no engine issues and compression on the cylinder was 75. So I'm not sure how I got from a healthy engine to a disintegrating cylinder in a couple months and only 20 or so hours of flight time, but here we are. I'm wondering whether it makes more sense to just do an overhaul from a reputable shop (given the TSOH) or an individual cylinder replacement. Thoughts? What are my options for good, reasonably priced overhaul shops? Obviously the plane is not going anywhere... Edit: Nope, apparently did not have top and bottom overhauls. Had a bottom "repair" ~430 hours ago after previous owned prop-striked it, and not sure what work was done on the top about ~1000 hours ago but it doesn't sound like it was a full overhaul (apparently the valves, for example, were not replaced).

Mechanic is taking a look today hopefully so I'll let you know. By the way, the audio is posted on liveatc, the kbfl archive Nov 7 at 2330Z. Starts about 15:45 in (the initial radio calls were on 121.5 and I had a guard nazi yell “you're on guarddddd" to me, I replied “I knowwww," lulz). http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kbfl/KBFL-Nov-07-2015-2330Z.mp3 Basically the conditions were ideal because this happened during the day, in good visibility, at high altitude (11k feet), within 25 miles of a large airport (KBFL), and I only lost partial engine power at first so had time to react before total engine failure. Had I been flying at night over unlit, mountainous terrain, this could have ended altogether differently.

Actually, I'm thinking maybe clogged fuel injector?

Yes, no effect. And thanks. I think it's more likely to be something like Fuel mixture given that the fuel pressure was normal. Fuel contamination is unlikely since I filled up prior to the accident flight and sumped. Edit: Broken valve on No. 3 cylinder

Finally happened today. Was up with two first time passengers flying from KOAK to KSMO and engine failed near KBFL. I was climbing and in the middle of adjusting the mixture and all of a sudden the engine noise changed pretty drastically, started getting bad vibrations and the EGT and CHT needles dropped to the cold peg. Made an emergency landing safely at KBFL, and engine cut out shortly before landing. Oil temps, oil pressure and fuel pressure were normal throughout and manifold pressure/RPMs were also normal. Any idea what this sounds like? Given that I was in the middle of adjusting the mixture, and given the extreme cooling of the engine, I wonder if a fuel hose might have broken off? I'll have a mechanic look at it on Monday but wondering what the likely suspects are. Plane got a clean annual in August and compressions were good. It's too bad because needless to say, my passengers aren't especially keen to ever go flying again. Edit: Model is 1982 M20J Second edit: Cause was broken valve on #3 cylinder, which damaged piston. Now considering where to overhaul engine, which is 2100 SMOH.

Thanks, I have one but it's third gen and getting old and slow. What do you have?

I got an estimate for a $9K annual this time around, after an $8K annual last year. WTF. It just annoys me. I think I'm just going to do the bare minimum -- then there are a lot of smaller items but the estimate for each one is like an hour each. At $110 per hour that adds up, especially when it's things like "replace rivet - 1hr." And there are 5 rivets that need replacing or need screws, and suddenly it's a $500 cost item because it's listed 5 different times, when at most it should take 10 minutes or be subsumed in the base cost of the annual inspection, which is already $3K. So I think I will defer all the smaller items, and just find a small local A&P to take care of all of those at the same time for a fraction of the cost.

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