kujo806

Hi Nick, Good to hear from a local. I will try to summarize my situation without boring everyone. I got my license in 2012 and relatively quickly got into a partnership in an Arrow II. I lived in Iowa at the time. The partnership worked out very well, and I actually really liked that plane (especially after I upgraded the avionics). Most of my time is in Arrows actually. I have always liked the idea (and look) of Mooneys and frequented this forum years back. One of the members in this forum was kind enough to let me see his E model a long time ago, and I remember being surprised how tight I felt in it, primarily in the foot wells. Shortly after I was going to fly a leaseback J model, but it turned out to have a major oil leak, and that flight got scrubbed. That leaseback disappeared, I got busy with a high stress job, and I had a few kids. Two years ago I got an opportunity to move back to the Chicago area. I had to sell my Arrow share, and got into a general flying club at KDPA (Fox). They have decent planes, but the availability is way worse than what I was used to. That combined with my unpredictable work schedule and COVID19, and I am getting the itch to investigate ownership again. I am open to partnerships as long as availability will be good. I don't have my IFR yet, but plan to in the near future if I can find a good accelerated program. I actually took my knowledge test years back, but as a result of the move and job change, it expired before I could do the practical. Okay so mission is I want to fly with my family (4 of us total), but in all honesty, most time will probably be just me. For a time I thought about a Lance or A36, but I just think it would be overkill and over expense for the majority of my mission (Sure the wife would enjoy it though). This is why I concluded that as long as it is bearable for the family to take some trips in without too much complaining, it probably makes more sense. Most of the time I will be in the midwest, so turbos don't make a lot of sense. That said if I have it a long time, I do plan to retire to my airpark land in Payson, AZ which has high DA. I'd like to keep the upfront cost below $150k (maybe more like 125), so if necessary, get something decent for <100 and put money into it, but would be great to find something turnkey for <125. I want decently modern avionics and autopilot. I have been looking at what's out there that meets this list of requirements. I really like Diamonds and Tecnams, but anything in that more modern realm is going to be over $200k. I looked at 182s, and I just think they are high priced for what they are. I saw some nicely equipped turbo Arrow IIIs fully upgraded with the Merlyn, intercooler, avioinics, etc., and they peaked my interest. I get it that Mooney's are better made, faster, better fit&finish, etc. I also know my family and I are comfortable with the Arrow. Maintenance (in availability of parts and A&Ps) and skill required to fly one is well understood. I could land them well, and there is no fear of the unknown. I think the turbo would be a near must though because 135knts just doesn't do it for me anymore :). That said, as I looked, I saw several M20Js and Ks in the market also nicely equipped. This does comes with concern for cabin comfort and landing proficiency though, and that is why I am looking to get some more experience with them. Hopefully I can get connected with some of the midwest Mooney guys and get some of my curiosities answered. Thanks for your response, and I always did find this forum to be friendly and helpful! Jon

Hello all. It has been a while since I posted, but life gets in the way of fun stuff sometimes. I got away from thinking of owning a plane for a while, but with recent situational changes, I have started to think about it again. I started perusing the for sale ads again, and noticed a lot of interesting Mooneys out there. I had stopped thinking about Mooneys for some years since having a family and little time to fly. I sat in an E and an Acclaim before, but never had the privilege of flying one. I am concerned about egress, comfort, skill required, but I want to get some first hand experience. I admit that the E made me feel claustrophobic and doesn't fit the bill. I am not sure if the longer bodies will feel better or not. Does anyone know of a place with a rental or leaseback M20 that I could get some dual time in? Even if I could sit in a J or K to get a feel for fit and ergonomics, it would be helpful. Preferably somewhat near Chicago. Thanks in advance. Jon

As luck would have it, I was thwarted again. Oil was spewing out of the plane when we got there. It was all over the gear door and cowl flaps dripping on to the ground. My instructor said the drain plug had been leaking, but they were going to fix it. Apparently it hadn't been. So scrubbed today, but I will get out there when it gets fixed.

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for these great responses. I have always felt that the Mooneyspace forums are extremely helpful and friendly. I am looking forward to getting out there this weekend. I will definitely plan to do a lot of slow flight and stall work before attempting landings.

Thanks for all the tips. I am going to try to get ahold of a POH before the flight. I always try to do that before I fly something different. I want to get a feel for different planes as I get more flying experience to see what I want to own. The arrow partnership is convenient right now with the lack of time I have to fly, but I seem to be looking at debonairs and mooneys quite a bit. I was excited to see that my local FBO started offering a leaseback M20J for rent late last fall. Weather and other obstacles have kept me from taking a ride until now (hopefully). I got to fly a debonair last summer, and that was nice. I am anxious to see what the Mooney feels like. I am most concerned about the landings as I have heard horror stories about porpoising and hitting props. The arrow is pretty simple to land. Bring back power, check speed, drops like a rock to the runway, flare and its a non issue. I greese the thing most of the time. It is good to hear about MooneyBob's transition from the Arrow. I will try to keep an eye on the trim. Takeoff trim in the arrow is pretty close to landing trim, so it is easy to get complacent. Thanks again.

If the weather holds up this weekend (and that is a big if this year), I am going to get some dual time in a M20J. This will be my first flight in a Mooney. What are the approach speeds I should use for landing? I am most concerned about the landings . Figure ~450lbs between me and my instructor in the front seats. I am used to flying my arrow, so I expect to have more float in the Mooney. I am guessing engine operation will be similar considering they are both IO-360s. Any other things to be aware of?

Well this weather is hard on batteries and starters in general, and if you don't run the engine for a while the battery will not get a good charge especially considering generators and alternators don't reach their max capacity until you run higher RPM (generators are worse). I guess if you use a trickle charger this isn't as big a deal. As for the engine, the moisture is created by combustion right? Any engine run at all will create water vapor. In fact, I would think more of this water (and other emissions) would reach the oil and crank case when cold because there is more blow by when everything is cold and hasn't expanded yet. Also, when you first start the engine, you will be running fairly rich. Whether it is my car or plane, I prefer to run it a while so you reach normal operating temp and don't shut it off while running rich. Just my $0.02. Again, I fully agree that it is better to go flying, I would rather do that than idle on the tarmac anyway, the problem is that sometimes it is not an option, and I think running at idle for a while (up to nominal oil temp) is better than letting the plane sit for months. I only did this once and it was after a month of no flying.

It ran for 15-20minutes in this instance. I wouldn't shut down after 30seconds any time if I could help it. That is bad on the battery and engine. Oil temp came up to nominal before I shut down. If after a ten minute run there is that much water in the valve cover area, wouldn't the water be there after flying an hour too assuming the oil temp came up to nominal in both cases? In this weather I don't really ever see higher than nominal oil temp.

I had to do something similar back in December. I am in a partnership on a plane that had not been run in about a month. The weather in Iowa has been absolute you know what seemingly all winter. The rare day the weather was nice, I was busy and apparently the other partners were too. I started it up and let it run for a while to get the oil temp up. I didn't run it hard on the ground or anything like that. It would be hard to convince me that this was worse than letting it sit for a few months without touching it.

I'm in a partnership on it. I have been lurking on MS since my PPL training and always liked the efficiency of the Mooneys. That is why I was surprised to see real world M20C cruise speeds that are marginally better than what I am getting now. Well right now, the arrow partnership is probably the best fit. I don't get to fly nearly as much as I'd like to due to work/wife/baby responsibilities. I would definitely like to move up at some point and get my own plane in the near future. I have had a few opportunities, but I haven't been able to justify it or things fell through. At this point, I think I have narrowed down my choices to NA Mooneys or Debonairs...apparently a M20E or better if I want a decent increase in speed. Like I said, I haven't heard of too many arrows that do get book speeds, but I can attest to the fact that mine can touch 140kts. At 140, I would not be at 9-9.5gph however. I do typically cruise at 135kts though, and verify how much fuel I put back into it after the flight. At 135, it burns about 9.5gph or slightly less. The other partners have stated that the new scimitar prop added several knots to the cruise speed. I was not in the group at the time of the prop change.

So it sounds like M20C's are only slightly faster than the arrow I have been flying. I was surprised by that, but I don't usually hear of arrows that come close to their book speed either. I can get 140kts true in the arrow although I don't usually flog it quite that hard. I can do 135kts at 9.5gph quite easy however. It has the 2 blade scimitar, and I have heard that makes a big difference. I guess I will have to look for at least an E if I want to move up in speed.

Thanks for all the posts. The FBO said I am welcome to do a few hours of dual time in it without meeting those requirements. I plan to set that up soon, and get a feel for the M20J. I definitely have you in mind Scott for any questions that come up. It is good to see a reasonably priced J nearby. I am not shopping at this very moment, but depending on what happens in the near future, I may be. For now I have a pretty sweet deal in an Arrow partnership. Its not as sexy as a Mooney, but it is a relatively inexpensive time builder. I will continue to follow this very informative forum, and report back on my Mooney impressions.

So if I want to go up with an instructor for an hour, would the minimum hours/insurance requirements not apply? That would accomplish what I am trying to do. I will pose that question to the FBO.

I believe it is a leaseback. I could understand being cautious renting your aircraft, but don't they carry insurance on it too? In the event of an accident, which insurance company pays?

I have had Mooney's on my mind since I started my PPL training a few years back. The sleek looks and efficiency put them at the top of my list of aircraft that I would like to own. Of course, I want to fly one before I go that far. Several months back, I got to sit in a M20E, and take a closer look on the ground. It actually put some doubt in my mind due to the cramped footwells, but it is hard to judge without flying it. I was excited this past week to hear that my local FBO now had a M20J available for rent. Unfortunately, when I asked about the rental requirements, the answer was 200hrs TT and 1mil/60k renters insurance. I have a while to go to get to 200hrs (~140 currently), although I have about 30hrs complex in my arrow. I was surprised that the renters insurance requirements were so high. I carry basic renters, but 1mil/60k is quite a bit more expensive. Considering I rarely rent, it doesn't seem worth it. Is this premium renters insurance usually required to rent something fairly nice? I guess I have some time to figure it out while I build my hours. Sorry for the rant, I was just disappointed that I can't try out the Mooney at this point.

Thanks Patrick, This definitely helps. At this point I am thinking about May 19-21 for this trip, but nothing is firm yet. When the time comes, I will contact ASI. Thanks again!

Hello all, I am planning a little trip this summer to Cedar Point and then to the Dayton Air Force museum. I'd like to avoid renting a car if possible, and was curious if anyone had experience with a trip like this? My main concern is that there does not appear to be an airport all that close to the museum. Are there plenty of shuttle / taxi options available? I would assume this is a somewhat popular pilot destination. I don't really have a concern flying into class C if that is the best option. Any suggestions on flying into Cedar Point are welcome too although that looks a little more straight forward. On a side note, I was dissappointed to see that some of the Dayton exhibits will be closed due to the sequestration. I would have really enjoyed looking at the XB-70 and other aircraft. This political situation is frustrating to say the least. I'm sure $100 user fees will make everything much better.....

Thank you to everyone for all the good advice and tips. Special thanks to Scott for showing me his plane and pointing out some things to look for. I got a call from the owner this morning, and he has decided not to sell his plane and try to renew his medical. Of course if he doesn't pass or decides to sell down the road, I told him to give me a call. This happened just as I was getting excited about flying out there tomorrow to check it out. I think it is for the best however. Now the pressure is off, and I can take my time finding the right deal. The situation has given me the itch though, so this won't be the last you hear from me on Mooneyspace! I will go back to my original plan of building complex time in the club Arrow until the next opportunity comes along. If anyone knows of a good plane looking for a new owner, let me know . Thanks again.

Thank you for the pointer to George's post. There are a lot of good points in there. I am taking down some notes from that post on what to look for, and I am going to plan on flying over to see the plane this weekend. If everything goes well, I will plan to work out a pre-buy at Wilmar with the owner. Does anyone have any comments on Wilmar service? I have read several posts from people who had their tanks resealed there, and I believe the comments were generally positive. I also have a question about how to handle the pre-buy. The owner offered to pay for the annual with the purchase because it is due in December. I would assume this would be with "his guy". I was thinking about offering to pay for the general annual labor if done at Wilmar if he picks up the squawks (knowing that it may cost more at a MSC). Another thought I had was to just pay for a pre-buy inspection at Wilmar, and then let him pick up the actual annual at his shop (assuming any pre-buy squawks get fixed at that time). Does this sound like a decent idea or am I being naive?

Thanks for all the replies. Its good to know many of you were low time pilots when you bought a Mooney. So far I have not found anyone local with Mooney experience, but I will study up on things to look for in this forum and possibly fly over to see it this week. As far as what type of plane would suit my needs, I have thought about this during my training. I think a nice C/E model would be fine although I have always thought a F/J would be optimal...I just wasn't planning to actualy buy anything for a year or two. According to the owner, this M20F had a firewall forward overhaul a couple years back with less than 200 hours on the engine and prop currently. He also said it has newer paint and leather interior with a J style cowl and flap/aileron gap seals. He put a 430 GPS in it as well. It sounds pretty well equipped. If it looks and flies as good as it sounds, I will have to figure out whether or not to move forward. I suppose the next step after taking a look would be to work out a price and inspection agreement? The owner said he would pay for an annual as it is due in December, but I probably would not want to use it as an inspection unless it was with an independent shop (not his usual guy). Unfortunately, being fairly new to aviation, I don't really have a trusted A&P. I guess I will have to trust a Mooney shop (Wilmar?) or find a good shop through someone in my flying club.

First of all, I want to say that I have been reading the forums here for a while now, and this seems to be a great group of Mooney enthusiasts with very helpful information. Next I want apologize in advance for possibly rambling a bit in this post, but I am a new pilot and a bit overwhelmed right now. I just recently got my PPL and have just over 100 hours total time primarily in a Warrior and Archer with a few hours in a 172. It has been a goal and dream of mine to get a Mooney of my own someday (hence following the forums here), although I figured I would build some time and experience first by renting and look into ownership down the road. This week, my wife's uncle called me because he knows a guy who is up there in age and selling his beloved M20F that he has owned for 37 years. After talking to the seller, it sounds like the airplane has been his pride and joy with many mods and a great maintenance history. I have figured that when the time came, I would be interested in a M20F or J, so I found this occurance to be pretty interesting, unfortunately I don't know where to start. Because I was not planning on seriously shopping for a plane yet, I am caught off guard and a bit overwhelmed. I guess my first question is...am I stupid for even considering pursuing this plane at my level of experience? Other than that, I don't know of any Mooney experts in my area that I could consult for checking out the aircraft or giving me advice on how to buy a Mooney. I don't even know if I could get insurance on it. I don't really know what my next step should be. I plan to get my complex endorsement in the next few weeks on an Arrow (I was planning on that before this came up), but I don't know how to get any Mooney time or find a local Mooney authority. I suppose my next step may be to go look at it in person, preferrably with someone that has Mooney knowledge. It is not too far from me by air so travel isn't too much of a hassle. Other than convincing my wife, the financials aren't too big of an obstacle. Any suggestions on what to do next would be helpful and appreciated.

Scott, What has you shopping? Just curious...it looks like you have a nice setup with your current Mooney. I think I have seen yours parked behind the IowaFlighttraining planes.