Ashe

Is anyone familiar with a red '66 M20E (N86UM) that's had a full 201 conversion out of Oregon? It was advertised on Barnstormers for the past year as "Jim's Red Rocket". They recently cut the price by like $12K and at the new price (before the ad expired) I'm interested, but I'm also cautious. Already got burned by my current plane by making the mistake of trusting people (as much as I hate to say it). Anyhow, it was being represented by the Kopczynski's of Reliant Aviation, I'm really just looking to see if anyone's had first-hand exposure to this plane before I look at flying out to Oregon from Indy. Thanks, Ashe

I appreciate all of the responses, and I agree with what's being said. It's time to pull the trigger. The M20F I've been interested in is the white/blue plane on Barnstormers that's down in Kerrville, Texas. It's owned by an A&P who lives in a flight park, so the thing's been hangared and (supposedly) meticulously maintained. It has just about every aero mod I'd want already done to it, and from talking to two of the responders to this thread I've learned the door isn't necessarily shut on M20J conversions - the price has just gone up a bit. More importantly, it sounds like it's literally just a couple knots, which is no reason to pass up a clean, well-maintained, still-flying airplane. The owner has no problem taking it to Dugosh for a pre-buy, so if they sign off on it, I'll feel as comfortable as I possibly can with the condition...which as has been pointed out...is everything.

I guess what I was originally wondering is if that's all the difference between a SWTA cowl conversion and an actual 201 cowl. I know Russ's cowl conversion did change the cooling significantly and I think improved the induction system a bit as well. As I said, the thing really pushing me right now is that there are a couple of aircraft that are already modified within my budget, but they're SWTA conversions, not the Modworks style where they used the actual J-model components.

I had been holding out for a J-bar Mooney with a 201 windshield and cowl. I know the latter is not that common, but I also know that it was done under 337 and that the none of the FSDO's will field approve this particular mod anymore. So, I thought it made sense to hold out until one came along. Right off the bat, I found a 1968 M20F that had a full conversion: windscreen, cowl, belly, etc...even had wingtips, which I thought was unusual since I thought the J-bar M20F's had the twisted wings. Unfortunately, the plane had a host of issues and didn't even make it to pre-buy. Finding that plane so early probably did me a disservice, though, as it set my expectation/desire way too high, and since then, it's been a really long hunt...almost three years. I did buy a house in the middle of things when they had the tax credit, so I was only actively shopping for maybe two of those three years, but I did track the market continuously for a few airframes, including the J-bar M20E and M20F (I didn't start considering M20C's until this year, and I know I missed one or two Modworks conversions during that time). Needless to say, I'm getting impatient. The only two I've found in the last two years under $60K were an M20C and an M20E; both at Coy Jacobs' (incidentally, I saw both of those planes in mid-September - had stopped by SRQ on my own - both of those planes have spent the last 2 or 3 years unprotected in the Sarasota sun and salt air, and very much look it...the C model also has no spinner and a large bird's nest cascading out of the pilot side intake). I tried to buy that Lo Presti cowled M20F, but the seller wanted a short sale, and I was unwilling to waive a pre-purchase inspection (I'd even found a way to have a mechanic go to the guy's field). As it stands now, there are four SWTA cowled aircraft available, all within my price range. They're all practically Russ's "Texan" conversions. I don't know if they actually were converted all at once or not, but they all have the full SWTA "kit" so to speak...windscreen, cowl, tips, belly, seal/fairing "speed kit", etc. I'm wondering if I wouldn't be just as happy with one of these? I know it'll have more of a "chin" than a 201 cowled plane, but from some threads I found searching these forums, it sounds like the SWTA cowl got pretty close to the actual 201-cowl in terms of speed increase and cooling improvement. I'm not looking to go beat 201's with a vintage Mooney like I know some E-model hot rodders are fond of doing. If I can get a reliable, repeatable 150 kt - 155 kt TAS cruise in the neighborhood of 10 gph, I'll be happy w/performance. Looks are of course more subjective. I've seen the photos on Russ's site, and have been going through the photo galleries trying to find high resolution pics of SWTA cowled planes. Some angles I've seen look pretty good, some I find I don't like so much. But, truth be told, I haven't found a whole lot that I'd actually consider "high-resolution", or where the prop isn't covering the inlets. It's been a slow search, though. With the market the way it is, I'm trying to buy a plane that I can live with for the long-haul. I don't want to end up selling a few months, or even one or two years from now. I know I've over-analyzed things, I know I should have bought in years ago (although, my budget is more in-range now than it was in 2008), but I would appreciate any input/insight here. Ashe

I certainly agree, however, in looking at Mooneys that already have had the mods installed, I've found a number of E's and some F's in the upper-$40k/low-$50k range. The cheapest J's I've seen are in the mid-$60k range, and they tend to be the "bottom of the barrel" in more ways than just price. Although, the overriding factor for me looking at the older birds is that E/F I can afford to buy outright, where as at $60k and above, I need to look at borrowing money.

After 18 months or so, I'm still shopping Mooneys (among a couple other planes). I'm focused on pre-'69, manual gear/flap E's and F's with certain "must-have" 201 mods...well, for my tastes, anyhow. This is largely due to the impossibility of doing a number of the 201 mods anymore. As I've seen a number of these STC's be allowed to lapse or expire, I've begun to wonder about some of the MAC problems that newer model Mooney owners have had. In particular, I'm concerned about parts that cannot be rebuilt or fabricated by an A&P or MSC. The die-stamped control surfaces come to mind as an example here, but it has me wondering what other parts might be made using a process that is either too complex or cost prohibitive for an individual or small shop to replicate. However, is this a concern for the vintage, pre-J Mooneys that I'm looking at? Continuing with the control surface example, I believe the smooth-skinned surfaces found on the planes I'm looking are no more difficult to fabricate than a homebuilt RV, and could be readily repaired while the later model owner continues to scour salvage yards as they try repeatedly to get a hold of MAC. I guess I'm trying to guage how many other potential parts are like this, and how much a factor they are to the old, J-bar M20's before I take the plunge on one. Ashe

I'm considering a Mooney down by Boca Raton. I'm a bit concerned about a plane that looks like it's spent some time on a coastal Florida ramp, but the price is decent as is the spec-sheet. I'd like to hire a Mooney mechanic to go out to the field and do an onsite assessment to tell me if the thing's worth making an offer on and pulling in for a proper pre-buy. However, Florida seems to be lacking for decent Mooney shops. Any leads on honest, reputable Mooney guys in the area/region would be very helpful. Thanks, Ashe

This is absolutely a scam. This Mooney has been falsely advertised on multiple Craigslist locations, including: Columbus : http://columbusga.craigslist.org/rvs/2566276317.html Savannah: http://savannah.craigslist.org/rvs/2573760385.html Little Rock: http://littlerock.craigslist.org/rvs/2573799940.html Pensacola: http://pensacola.craigslist.org/rvs/2566294185.html Jacksonville: http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/rvs/2566285680.html Oklahoma City: http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/rvs/2573873765.html Memphis: http://memphis.craigslist.org/rvs/2573814751.html Fairbanks (Alaska): http://fairbanks.craigslist.org/rvs/2566271127.html Anchorage: http://anchorage.craigslist.org/rvs/2566259943.html Furthermore, I had replied to this guy a couple months ago when he first advertised, before I knew. His response about this being his dad's plane and him being in the Air Force didn't add up to the improper grammar and English of his email, nor did his email come from an Air Force email-address. A little poking around into the guy's claimed squadron and rank revealed both a long retired squadron, but more interestingly, an almost word-for-word text of a common car scam email (much like the Nigerian bank scam emails). So definitely, BE WARNED

I think for a more extreme case of this, you could look at the Globe/Temco Swift, where the Swift Museum Foundation procured the type certificate and most parts are either custom made, or you get drawings and it falls under Owner Produced Parts, which I guess is allowed for truly orphaned, certified aircraft. Now, the issue of parts complexity is another story - the Swift is an old enough design that parts are pretty easy to replicate through mostly manual means. The die stamped elevator mentioned earlier, for example...I don't know where we'd turn. Ashe

And it's back. He didn't want to use a broker, but it ended up w/a broker all the same. Not that I'm faulting them for trying for a profit, but for a cool $13K, I'd expect them to add some sort of value to the plane, which it doesn't look like they have. Ah well... http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-201/1977-MOONEY-M20J-201/1200601.htm?

I called the guy about this plane on Friday. Other than needing paint and having outdated avionics, and perhaps the fact that the last corrosion proofing was almost 20 years ago, the plane sounded pretty decent, especially for the price. He even had O&N bladders in it. The owner was an older gentleman who needed to get money out of the plane in short order. He didn't want to use a broker so he priced it aggressively. He also didn't really want to be subject to the delays of having an independant pre-buy. He was looking for a cash buyer. Incidentally, the plane sold to the first guy who called about it. I know because I was caller #2. I suspect we'll see it again in a few weeks with a fresh paint job and a $30K higher price.

As I sit here watching and waiting for the right plane to come along, I was wondering if there are any C, E, F, or J model Mooney owners in the Central Indiana area who would be willing to take me up for a tank of gas and maybe a $100 burger on me. I've had a very short flight in an M20F. I'd like to try a short body C/E model if possible, but any of those four would be great. I fly out of Hendricks County Airport (2R2), just west of Indianapolis proper, but can easily reach any of the Central Indiana airports on just about any day of the week. On a weekend day, my range opens up to anywhere in Indiana, eastern Illinois, southern Michigan, west Ohio, or northern Kentucky. Ashe

That's what I suspected, but thought I'd ask just in case

I read an older post about installing electirc gear in a Johnson bar plane that referred to the reverse having been done at Dugosh. Assuming the plane is the proper year for manual gear, is this something that an STC exists for? Is this another one of those mods that was possible when field-approvals were easier to get? I've basically been looking for a manual gear 201-clone and have come across two, but had to dismiss due to shady sellers. There are a pair of electric gear'd 1968 F-models out there that, if I could convert them for a reasonable amount I might consider.

I lived in Florida from 1990 to 2003...I agree w/the sentiments aired here. Not that there aren't plenty of decent people there, but there are alot of conartists and scammers. That info about the broker's litigious nature seals it for me. I don't need to get sued just because I'm trying to look out for my own interest in a major dollar purchase. I'll keep shopping. Moving on....

I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest. Nor do I wish to name names. However, having looked through the forum here, there is a certain broker in Florida that enjoys, shall we say, a less than stellar reputation. Far less than stellar. Probably the exact opposite, in fact... The thing is that I've been shopping planes for over a year now and he's got a bird that ticks all the right boxes. For those who know who I'm talking about, could I deal w/this guy safely if I brought in an independant Mooney expert, or is the fact that he is representing the plane at all a reason to walk away?

Scott, The point you raise about the modded E has me wondering about an older post of mine where I was asking about Vne/Vno of the 1960's short bodies (though I suppose in a racing environment, no one really cares about placarded speeds). While at this point I have no doubt that the E presents the highest speed potential, wouldn't the E have well exceeded Vne pulling away from a J that is maybe only just entering it's yellow arc? Quote: scottfromiowa .... Coy Jacobs cleaned up an M20E with lots of speed mods and a custom cowl and it kicked the crap out of a stock 201. The plane had the same engine, more mods, but was LIGHTER than the J. It won. A longer body definitely smooths out turbulence, but it is NOT faster because of the long body, but because of the mods that more than compensate for the weight gain with the length. Mod out an E with a Lo-Presti cowl. Get a strong engine and you will whip a J in climb, cruise...whatever....

So I'm fairly sure I'm going to end up in a manual gear M20F. That limits me to 1967 and 1968 vintages. I see some people say they have 1966 as well, although I think the serial numbers on 1966 models still denotes a '67 model year. Anyhow, from what I've read the 1967 and early 1968 long bodies have a twisted wing that robe a few knots of speed. However, I've also read that mid '68 brought the end of the "clean wing" until the advent of the M20J. So...am I correct in assuming that the only "clean wing" M20F's would be twisted wing F's? If so, is the speed loss a wash between a twisted, "clean wing" 67 model and a non-twisted, "non-clean wing" late '68? Ashe

As I close in on the right plane for me, I've narrowed my Mooney options to the E or F model. I've actually had a really breif flight in the F (like 15 - 20 min demo). It wasn't really enough to get a feel for the plane, but I know my 6' 2" frame fits fine. I fly out of Hendricks County Airport (2R2) on the west side of town. Is there anyone around who'd like a tank of gas in exchange for a ride? I'd like to check out an F again as well as a short body. For the latter, I don't mind much if it's a C or E, I'm trying to guage how well the cabin will work for me, and I'd like to see if I can detect any difference in flight characteristics of the shorter airframe. I suppose I should also ask if there anyone nearby that is a CFI and qualified to do Mooney checkouts if I buy one of these? Ashe

I'm still shopping planes, and being sure I can afford to keep/own the plane is very high on my list. I'd been looking at M20C's thinking I'd save money by going manual gear/hydraulic flaps/O-360. A couple articles dub the C the more economical model, and three of the well known MSC's agree that a C/G is a cheaper Mooney to own. I've even considered the M20B because of it's manual mechanical flaps, though everyone says not to buy a B-model. So, these were my initial assumptions: Manual gear/flaps = cheaper to own than electric (no motors to inspect, rebuild) O-360 = cheaper to inspect, maintain, and overhaul; more likely to go well past TBO; marginally more fuel efficient Short body = less drag than long body However, after talking to several more shops, reading through the discussion boards, and based on the responses to my first two postings here, I think I'm simply wrong on all counts. To use the same points: Gear/Flaps = It might cost $50-$75 more a year (on average) to own than an electric gear model. A gear motor rebuild might run $1000, but that's maybe once every 15 years. The electric flaps are actually preferable to hydraulic as the hyd. pumps haven't been made for a long time and are costly used/salvage (if you can find one) Engine = The IO-360 does indeed cost several thousand more to overhaul, but that is more than offset by fuel savings through LOP operations which the carb motor cannot do. The O-360 might have been the more efficient motor 20 or 30 years ago, but GAMI has changed that. Both engines are equally likely to meet/exceed TBO if treated properly and flown frequently. Fuselage = The cross sectional and interference drag is the same on both planes, the frictional drag from 10" more fuselage is negligible. The only thing that works in favor of the short body is weight. So, I guess I'd just like some input and opinions. Are my conclusions correct, that if I ignore purchase price, does it really not cost any more to own a late-seventies J than a mid-sixties C? Ashe

I'm currently shopping some of the older M20's, and one of the things I am wary of is ownership costs. While the market prices of the planes is well within my range right now, a high four-figure or five-figure maintenance bill is not. It seems the most likely cause of something like that is the engine. Right off the bat, I've noted that the O-360 runs about $5k to $8k less at overhaul, and is about $10k - $12k less to buy new than the 200hp IO-360. While that is alot of money to me, it's not enough for me to dismiss the advantages of the injected motor. If anything, it has me wishing the 180hp parallel valve IO-360 was an option. Hopefully, this is something that only needs to be done once every 10 years of so, and averaged out that isn't too bad provided the motor can "go the distance". In speaking with several well known MSC mechanics around the country as well as some engine shops, I've gotten mixed opinions on the two engines' durability. About half the shops feel the 180hp engine is more durable than the 200hp one, attributing that to the lower compression putting less strain one the components. Not that they feel the IO-360 is unreliable, but that it has a higher chance of needing a rebuild in the last 100 or 200 hours before TBO, and that it is unlikely to sail past TBO the way so many 180hp O/IO-360's will do. However, the other half of the shops out there feel they're equally reliable and equally durable, and that the 200hp motor costs no more to own or maintain than the 180hp one except for costing more to rebuild. Their opinion is that the difference in compression ratio (.2 I believe) is negligable and that it's more than made up for in improved cylinder head and fin design. I'd really appreciate hearing owner experiences on the matter, as the most important thing to me is getting a plane I can afford to log some decent time in. Ashe

I'm currently shopping older Mooneys. From reading a few articles and the forums hear, I understand that the pre-1969 M20 C and E models had lower VNO & VNE than later yearss (as well as all long-bodied M20's). However, with the '65-'67 M20E being the hot rod darling that it is, it seems to me that a nicely modded mid '60s E-model wouldn't have much trouble busting the 189mph VNE in level flight at full power. From what I've read, there may be a couple very heavily modded C's that might do this, too. I've read that the V-speed change in 1969 was merely a paperwork affair, and that the '65-'68 short bodies are just as structurally strong as the 1969-1978's are. Do owners of more highly modded mid-60s birds just get comfortable flying into the yellow and occasionally above redline? Is there an STC that officially can change this...perhaps allowing a later model ASI installation? Ashe