M20GforMe

I did, I found a good write up on csobeech (I found the link here on MooneySpace) and purchased one of the fluorosilicone Shaw O-Ring kits from Gallagher https://www.gallagheraviationllc.com/Gallagher-Aviation-Shaw-431531-Fluorosilicone-Fuel-Cap-Kit_p_161.html The write up was here https://www.csobeech.com/files/O-RingChange.pdf

It was on me, I didn't ask the right questions. He had 1600 hours. He was in fact "happy to teach me how to fly the mooney". He just had alot of beech, piper, and 172 time. I've been drinking from the firehose

Ahead of you on this one, found a seasoned Mooney guy to start from scratch with me on the Mooney once I have the plane back from annual. 2 or 3 sessions in and I realized that the original CFI wasn’t as Mooney proficient as he said he was.

When the log issue had come up, I thought it may be worse than it was, and didn’t want to tie the issue to my plane on the internet. At the same time though, I’m not looking to cut corners anywhere on ownership, so there’s not really anything to hide. I didn’t expect the traction that this post has gotten, but I’m very thankful for it. I don’t think it’s productive to lose sleep on the log issue anymore, but I did call the engine shop that did the overhaul in 2007, Aero Services of Winchester, to see if they could tell me if they had any information on why the engine was overhauled (was not near TBO) so that I could have an idea of what led to the missing page right before the overhaul. The lady that answered was very nice, but she had me on speaker and somebody (I would imagine an owner) chimed in immediately when I mentioned the overhaul from 2007 and was pretty rude about me asking if they may have an old record. They won’t get a penny out of me ever, although Im fairly certain ownership has changed since the overhaul. I called another shop or two like Bolduc (now Horizon) to get IRAN timelines and estimates if I had to go down that avenue and Kevin there was great, but they were out 6-8 months if I remember right. In case anyone else is looking, Poplar Grove here was out 8 months. Airmark Overhaul was by far the shortest of those I called at about 10-12 weeks.

Would this be legal if it’s not specified for that engine? If anybody knows an A&P in the area with good lycoming knowledge that can give a second opinion and can travel to Lewis university (KLOT), I’d be willing to pay their rate for a good second opinion. I called Poplar Grove Airmotive as they’re nearby, (My A&P had also been in touch with them to ask questions on this previously) but they said they are too backed up to have anyone travel off site. The shop it’s at, Coletti, was very friendly about welcoming another A&P in for a second opinion

A&P said part numbers from old pushrods were sl15f19957-35, part numbers from new pushrods he was replacing them with are sl15f19957-34 I couldn't tell you, I bought the plane at the end of last year, and its only flown maybe 10 hours since I've had it. My CFI grounded it for a while in January because the nose gear door had some play to it (just needed new heim bearings), but the first A&P shop (Revv at 06C, on my field) took 3 weeks to tell me that they didnt have time to get to it, so then we took it to another shop (Travel Express) at Dupage who fixed that after a week or two. When my CFI flew it back, he said it was running rough, so he flew it back to Dupage, and was going to have his buddy that is an A&P look at it. After 2 weeks in his hanger waiting for his buddy to look at it, his buddy said he didn't have time to take it on (or that it was a bigger project than he could fit in, rather), so my CFI taxi'd it back to Travel Express on the same field, and they found water in the carbeurator. (It was hangered when I bought it, and at my field, but it must have sat outside at travel express for a bit the first time around). They fixed it but that took 3 weeks, and said the engine ran great. Then when I got it back, I checked the fuel tanks and they had water in them. They fixed the water in the carb problem, but not the root cause, which made me decide to not do my annual with them. So then I "may or may not have" changed the seals on the gas caps myself (This isn't incriminating, is it?... I am a PPL student). I was supposed to fly again with my CFI a week later, but when the day came, he said hes not comfortable flying the plane since I (a student) changed the fuel cap O-Rings myself (even though he was there watching me and talking to me when I did it...). So then it sat for another month as my CFI wouldn't fly it until the annual came around, which was April 30th. It's been at the shop since then. The silver lining in all this is that I did tell the A&P to check the gas caps during the annual, he said I did a good job at that at least.... It's been a tough 8 months of plane ownership...

Would there be a P/N identifier on the pushrods or would this come from the logs? (Or from a parts diagram?)

Here is a photo of some of the original rockers that were pulled from the engine, you can see the surface that sits on the valve shows wear which is part of what started all of this

I went to the shop today and I took some videos of the A&P explaining their process and logic, so that they are not lost in translation. What happened was there was a bent push rod housing, they replaced it, removed the rocker, saw the rocker valve side face had wear in it, and thats where this snowballed from I broke it down into three short videos Video 1: (2 minutes) Breakdown of how he came upon the issue and what they found. Damage to rocker valve side face shown Video 2: (38 seconds) Explains the bleeding process they did for the hydraulic lifters. They share that the rocker arm is wearing itself into a clearance. (Can anyone verify if this process sounds like it was done correctly?) Video 3: (2 Minutes) Explains the measurements they took that made them believe the crank case has been machine past acceptable tolerances. (I'm not convinced the measurements they did were the most accurate since it looks like theyre measuring from a score line, but maybe someone can glance at the housing and see if it looks milled down beyond normal). PS - we did look at another engine, but it had more washers on the crank case bolts, so the "counting threads" approach was debunked Feedback is appreciated! They're waiting for me to give me the next steps as of the moment

Thank you for the input - I spoke with a savvy member and they said it’s a bit late for them to get involved, past the point of where they could be much help. I’ll speak with the shop owner directly and see if they can get it put back together with original parts. Maybe I can invest in an engine monitor instead for the time being. Would anyone happen to know if the attached alternator would have ever been acceptable on the plane? This was the one on the plane that the A&P said was automotive and was illegal to have. He said they were trying to find correct brackets for it because it was misaligned originally, but then they saw the label and said it was illegal

Doing some more digging here, is there a way you would recommend approaching this? Do I need to buy a certain level of their plan and then ask for Mike? Or is it not Mike specifically that I need, but just anyone from Savvy? Would I need to schedule a time with them and my A&P together? Sorry just trying to get my ducks in a row before I reach out to Savvy. I don’t want to use anyone’s time inefficiently. Thank you!

As the 32 year old who has to pay for a wedding this year too, I figured it was best to plan for extra seats in the future I trust myself behind a wrench pretty well, but I don’t know enough about aviation to take it all on myself, and it’s not the place I want to take risks. I think I’ll spend the next year finding an A&P that will let owners assist, and get my paws greasy to learn more. The guys over at DACY seemed like they were genuine lovers of aviation and would have let me get my hands dirty, but I was never able to get on their schedule the 2 or 3 times I tried

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that was a $405 task by any stretch of the imagination. As for parts markup, everyone will have a varying answer on this. If it’s 15% up to maybe 30% then it’s probably not far off base. I wouldn’t be able to afford a plane if I sold things at cost at my dayjob either. I also think the acceptable markup percentage varies by cost of part. I don’t want to pay an installer 100% more on a $6K EFIS in addition to the labor. But I also doubt the avionics guy is paying retail for the avionics either. At the same time, if he charged me $2 for a screw that he got for $1, I wouldn’t be complaining. But nothing costs $1 in aviation so I guess that’s a moot point

Well then this will give me something else to talk to the A&P about tomorrow… good to know.

This is correct - I was trying to not name names, as I don't think there was anything to gain/lose by naming the A&P as of current. It's a newer shop. From my understanding, the owner Brenden Coletti worked at 06C, then when the FBO at 06C was taken over by Revv, he didnt like the way Revv was operating things and left to start his own shop. I had my plane at Revv previously and was definitely not satisfied with their process/work. To my knowledge, 06C was a Mooney Service Center up until Revv took over. (I believe the FBO was Schaumburg Flyers back then) There has been an M20K at Revv thats been grounded since November, and since then, Revv has gotten the boot (or left on their own accord, don't know the full story) from the field and its been taken over by Holiday Airways, who has not yet opened their A&P shop. Given that my Flight School owner said he would trust Colletti, and that I couldn't get another A&P to commit to taking on the annual (except Travel Express at Dupage, with whom I have had a not great experience with already), I took the plane to Colletti. I will say, besides having to have a wallet that can handle it, breaking into aviation without a pre-existing aviation "network" has been tough. That being said, everyone has been welcoming and very helpful, but it took a while to meet the guys in town who have Mooney's, I could've used their wealth of knowledge and network sooner. Having a Mooney in a world of Cessna's definitely can feel like driving a Porsche in the middle of Chevy Country.

I may have misspoke, I had him send me a photo, it was a Fram filter, but doesn’t look like it’s in the fuel system. I’m going to swing by the shop tomorrow, get a detailed explanation and photos of the rocker situation, and see if I can share them here for some additional guidance. A big thank you to everyone who has provided some input already. I’ll record the mechanics explanation of the situation so nothing is lost in translation when I post the update here. Also someone touched on the serial plate number before - I asked about this a few weeks ago. The serial plate is where it’s supposed to be, I watched videos of other G’s and found the plate to be in the same location. I had intentions to fly the plane to Canada and back. When I asked the A&P to leave it as is and remove from the quote, they said “The data plate is in the original spot. I wasn't going to remove the original one. I was going to stamp and install another one on the pilot's side tail. If you weren't planning on flying out of the country, we would not worry about it. But since you do plan on it. It has to be secured to the exterior fuselage, near the on the rear of the fuselage near the tail surfaces”

To the shops credit - when they dropped the initial quote on me, they didn’t just send it to me. They had me come in, showed me everything on the quote on the actual plane, and walked me through them line by line as they presented the quote. I do think they’re knowledgeable, this was not meant to be slander against the A&P shop. At the end of the day, I want a safe aircraft and I’m not doubting that they will deliver that. I also don’t doubt that they’re experienced. The owner of the shop used to work at the shop at my now home field, which used to be a Mooney Service Center. (I’m not sure how much overlap there was though either) I also totally understand parts being marked up within reason, sourcing and such have costs involved. I obviously don’t think I’m getting the best deal on the block, which I’m okay with, but I don’t want to be getting screwed over either which I don’t think they’re trying to do. I think they’re airing on the side of caution but also trying to run a business What’s going to stink is being $125k into a plane worth $80k at the end of this, and also not having a plane for 6 more months. But I’ll appreciate having a plane I can trust with my life when I do finally get to fly it

I believe that replacement rockers were sourced, sending them out to be repaired wasn’t an option presented to me. I was just sent some photos, the prop and alternator are off and a lot of the rest of the plane hasn’t been put back together yet but I think those repairs are about done and they could be reassembled. The engine is not removed but is partially disassembled for the rocker replacement

I don’t believe the engine is removed, I’ve asked for photos of its current state. If I had to guess the prop hasn’t been reinstalled and I’m unsure if the new alternator has been installed yet. Engine would most likely be disassembled for the rocker replacement. Everything on the quote is about done. Since they were almost all airworthiness items I didn’t think I really had an option besides approving.

I guess I should ask what my options are at this point. The plane is at their shop, it’s out of annual now (wasn’t when they got it). It’s been a royal pain in the ass finding an A&P in the Chicago area. I called many places and got everything from “we don’t have the bandwidth” to “call us next month and see if we’re available”. These guys had a few mooneys in their shop when I took it there so it installed some confidence. Do I tell them to put it back together and get a ferry permit to have it taken somewhere else? Or am I screwed by the fact that’s it’s in their possession and out of annual (which was my original thought and why I’ve been saying yes to everything). The annual was supposed to be done in about a week with all the squawks on the original quote I shared. (They’ve had it for about 5 weeks now) They seem experienced and like they know what they’re doing, but they definitely aren’t the cost effective guy on the block. It’s at KLOT right now if anyone has advice in this area.

I apologize I have not replied to all questions, to be honest I'm following my A&P's advice a bit more blindly than I should, but its a learning process for me as a new owner. The A&P was recommended to me by the owner of the flight school I was attending. "Theres not many people I would trust with my planes, he's one of them" was the phrase the flight school owner said to me which had me take it to them. Here are screenshots of the initial quote, this is before they told me that all 3 wheels and tires needed to be replaced (found used Main Gears, had to buy a new nose one and wheels are PRICEY), then they found they had to change the nosegear assembly, so things added up. What they said on the engine was they were changing valve cover gaskets and found the rocker arms were damaging themselves on the valves. They could not get any valve clearance, so they took out the standard length push rods, put the shortest push rods in, and still couldnt get the 0.028" - 0.080" clearance they needed. Based on their observations, they think the case halves have been milled down past allowable tolerance. and at the minimum the engine would need a new crank case. The compressions on the engine were all really good on past annuals and on this one, but then this came up. Theres about 800 hours on the O360-A1D. The next question is if anyone has had recent experience with IRAN/Rebuild shops with more "palatable" lead times. The A&P normally uses Poplar Grove Airmotive, but theyre still waiting on an engine they sent them back in January, so I'd expect at least 6 months from them. Option B is exchanging the core for a rebuilt engine I suppose, but that also seems like an expensive proposition. I'm going to start calling around and see what an IRAN costs at a minimum. I have no experience here admittedly, but is it fair to assume that if I am already going down the road of an IRAN and case replacement I may be better off just overhauling/exchanging the engine? Last overhaul was 2007. Compressions at last annual were 72/80, 74/80, 72/80, 75/80.

I’m going to chalk this up as an expensive learning lesson and move on, I appreciate the Candid responses. I think my A&P got me a bit worked up, but at the end of the day I shouldn’t have let it go without a prebuy, and I’m not convinced this would have all been caught in a prebuy either. I’ll just pray the IRAN goes well and doesn’t take as long as I fear it will. Thank you all for your input

Understood that it may not go well for me, transparently, I don’t want to be litigious or unduly get anyone in any level of trouble that’s unfounded. My A&P found it very suspicious, especially since the next page was an engine rebuild with the engine nowhere close to TBO. I just don’t want to have been “intentionally screwed”. I know I’m guilty for not having done the full prebuy by a trusted shop. I’m gonna have to fall on the sword (wallet) for that.

The logbook entry was more than a year old. Would the plane technically only have "partial logs" at this point? Would it be wrong for me to sell the plane (in the future, no intentions to sell now) as having complete logs if a page is torn out? I would feel better about it if I knew what the page had listed. Considering its right before an overhaul, it must be something notable? On another note - considering it appears the last A&P was not doing due diligence on the plane when doing annuals, is there a report we should be filing? This is more of a concern of general safety than it is about anything to gain for me. It appears to my A&P and I that he just signs off on the annual without doing his due dilligence of making sure the aircraft is actually airworthy

I bought my first plane last year and made the mistake of not having a prebuy done (huge mistake). I did ask to schedule a prebuy, and the person who was representing the plane basically said that two other people were interested and if I wanted to do a prebuy, I would lose the plane (This is also on me and I know it, I was excited to buy my first plane, I was trying to spend the money before the year ended for tax purposes, and the pilot that I bought it from was flying it with his kids and wife in it when he dropped it off, so I had assumed it was safe). I had asked for the logbooks before purchasing and a digital copy was sent to me that I made the purchase based off of. The problem I'm running into is that the plane is in for its first annual, and its a heavy bill. It was in annual when I purchased it, and I'm wondering if the last A&P who signed off on it should be pursued also. I'm not the type to legally pursue anyone, but I'm contemplating if it's justified here. The terrible things that came out of annual - corrosion, the alternator had been replaced with an automotive alternator, the fuel filters were replaced with automotive fuel filters, all the wheels were beyond repair, etc. I was willing to deal with these and the fact that the annual was up to almost $30k. The compressions were all strong when we started the annual and so at least I had a strong engine. Well that changed too when the rockers were being replaced and the engine would not mount to the replacement rockers. The crankcase had apparently been milled beyond tolerance and will have to be sent out for an IRAN at a minimum. This is also when the A&P told me that there was a page that had been ripped out of the engine logbook right before its last overhaul, which was of course not disclosed in the logbooks that were sent to me over email that we bought the plane based off of. So questions 1) Is there a legal case for misrepresentation of an aircraft here with the evidence of pages being ripped out (A&P sent me photos showing where the page was torn, and I have the logbook copies that were emailed to me when we were looking at the plane that don't show any evidence or mention of torn pages). 2) What type of lawyer would I be seeking to take on this case If I did want to pursue the seller and the person that was acting as a broker. They are both pilots, I'm not sure either is registered as a broker 3) How do we properly go after the A&P that signed off on this as being airworthy when it clearly should not have been, I'm not sure what else he is putting out that is not safe to fly in. PS - I messaged the previous owner and he of course was not happy with being accused of selling a non-airworthy airplane. He asked what he would gain by ripping a page out of log book, etc. Obviously this makes the engine log incomplete, I assume this would also reduce the value of the plane It's the page directly before the last overhaul if that makes a difference. The owner also said that I should look up the STC before accusing him of using an automotive alternator, but the alternator had a carquest logo on it, and I assume that would in no way be approved, especially since my A&P said it needed to be replaced.