Ben E.

Thanks guys, I'm going to do more investigation regarding the corrosion since it has spent its life in SW Florida but the plane has always been hangared during that time so that's good. Regarding pulling a cylinder for borescoping, if that becomes an issue with the seller, do you think the fact that it was overhauled by Signature 3 years ago with brand new cylinders and has been flown 625 hours since then should significantly reduce the risk of cylinder corrosion?

I have attached a failed purchaser's prebuy showing some issues. N242HM estimate.pdf

Hi Guys, does anyone know anything about this plane or have any thoughts about what you see: http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1457321/1990-mooney-m20j-mse Thanks, Ben

Hi Matt: I haven't followed up on this plane since the time I started this thread. I was waiting for the logs to be posted out of curiosity about the previous engine overhaul, but I decided I didn't want to deal with the unorthodox overhaul this one had. Also, I originally thought it had a 430W, but it's just a normal 430. If you're interested, you should reach out to Dave at Airmods. - Ben

Thanks for that info. I will definitely let you know my thoughts if I go check it out.

John Jewell Aircraft, Inc. did the work before the cylinder replacement. They're still in business: http://www.sounddimension.corinth.ms/services/engine/index.html I don't know who replaced the cylinders. I can't read the name of the A&P unfortunately.

I don't think that's what happened. I think they did maintenance on the engine, perhaps after a prop strike, and then realized 272 hours later that if they replaced the cylinders then they could retroactively call it a major overhaul. In any case, 272 hours previously there were not new or overhauled cylinders.

That's an estimate based on the assumption that the useful load is 1100 lbs and 64 gallon tanks. I don't know what the actual number is yet, but I'd be extremely happy with a 1100lbs useful load. I'll find out about the possibility of a gear up once I see the complete logs, hopefully soon. Does anyone have a link for L163C by chance? I can't find it.

I guess I don't know much about what's checked in a major overhaul. I'd need to look up the procedures on that. One concern would be checking the crankshaft. Maybe it hasn't been examined since the last (pre-2000) overhaul, which I don't know the date of yet. I was actually looking at the engine time differently than you guys. They did the "overhaul" in 2000, and then on the later undated entry it says the cylinders were replaced at 272 SMOH, so in a sense at 1325SMOH that would make it ~1100 hours. Another thing, what do you guys think the issues are with what looks like a rusted starter flywheel in the photograph?

Hi Guys: I've been looking at a M20F that's being sold through Air Mods. Here's the link: http://www.airmodsflightcenter.com/forsale/N6984V#/sites/airmodsflightcenter.com/files/forsale/N6984V/N6984V_0323-b_forsale_big.jpg Dave is working on scanning the logbooks, but in the meantime he was kind enough to send me some pics from the engine logbook. Here is the link: https://goo.gl/photos/yj5q2E2c2Acjp89e6 I've looked at a lot of log books, but I have never seen this before. In 2000, the engine was disassembled to comply with a service letter that I can't find on the internet. The camshaft was replaced as well as several other parts. It doesn't mention an overhaul or making sure parts meet limits. Then 272 hours later in an undated entry, an A&P documents replacing the cylinders with ECI Cerminil remanufactured cylinders and says because of this and the work done in 2000 that this constitutes a major overhaul. What are your thoughts on this "overhaul" and the plane based on what you can see from the ad? - Ben

Thank you. I've been looking for close to a year now, so I'm pretty familiar with what you can get based on price. I actually put an offer on a M20J in August, but got outbid by a few thousand. Test flew another one before that. That plane was recently in an accident due to loss of engine power. Glad I didn't get that one (N201EU). I plan to buy on my own by mid spring if I can't find a partner, but thought it was be nice to cut costs and have a potential flying buddy.

Thanks for the response. I have a car, so I drive to KCDW regularly and currently rent from Airfleet Training (where I did my private and am currently doing my instrument rating). KCDW is the shortest drive for me, and I like that it's a towered field with multiple runways, has decent spacing from the bravo, and has relatively reasonable tiedown/hanger costs. I'm looking to create a two (possibly open to three) person partnership that will acquire a M20J with a relatively recently overhauled engine, properly functioning 2-axis autopilot tied to a WAAS GPS (430W or better), bladders or possibly resealed tanks, a nice exterior and interior, probably an engine monitor, and preferably an ADS in/out and backup attitude indicator already installed. My partner and I would share fixed costs through a monthly fixed fee and then pay an hourly fee that would go into reserves for engine overhauls and other time based maintenance needs. I don't want to try to buy the cheapest M20J there is, I'd rather buy something that has everything we want/need and is in great shape as to minimize future upgrade expenses and hopefully reduce the surprise expenses. I would rather use the bank's money instead of mine so my partner would need to be on board with getting financing since the finance company will file a lien. Typically I fly for a few hours on the weekend for a $100 hamburger, with the occasional weekend trip (to ski mostly) and maybe 1 or 2 week long trips per year. My ideal partner would have similar usage needs. I'm also open to partnering with someone at a field near to NYC that already has a M20J or possibly a newer model and would like to take on a partner to reduce costs. But like I said above, I don't want to use my cash for my share when I can get financing in the 4% interest range, so I would have to find a way to do it with financing, like becoming a co-borrower on an existing loan or doing a refinance where we'd get a new loan with both owners as borrowers.

Hi Guys: I'm ready to purchase a M20J to be based at Caldwell Airport in Fairfield, NJ (CDW). I live in the city and CDW seems to be the quickest airport to get to. It's also where I did my training, and I've always thought it was a good airport. I'm looking at planes around $125k. The most important thing for me is a strong, lower time engine, 2 axis autopilot, a good GPS, and bladders. It will need to be IFR certified. I want to take on a partner for this purchase. If you think you may be interested please let me know. I would want to purchase as soon as possible, provided we found the right plane. About me: I have about 100 hours and a complex rating. I'm halfway through my instrument rating and expect to have that finished within a month or so. - Ben

Ok, good to know. I'm going to try to figure out what the issue is with it.

Lol, in all fairness that's quite a bit north of NYC, but I guess I'm just used to southern storms. It's like when people tell me NYC is hot and muggy and then I remember daily temps back home around 100 degrees with 80% humidity for several months straight. Do you guys think a stormscope is more accurate or useful than foreflight and ADS-B in weather?

Do they work well? Currently I look on foreflight for lighting strikes and radar readings. I live in NYC and rarely fly out of the region, and we don't have a lot of real storms. I'm from the south originally and we had real storms there, and I would definitely want a stormscope there.

I think the stormscope is inop. If you look at the breaker panel it looks like it has a zip tie holding the breaker pulled out for it. I don't think I need a stormscope, but definitely want to get ADS-B in for the weather.

This is the only evidence I can find that the plane is on its third engine: This is the first page of the first airframe logbook. The original engine was scratched out and replaced with the second engine, which was replaced according to the logbook entry I posted previously. There's nothing in the airframe logbook that indicates the first engine was replaced. That seems strange.

By the way, for those interested, here's the plane in question: http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2197152&s-type=aircraft She's beautiful. I'm trying to ignore that paint job and interior and think logically here.

BINGO, thanks for that link, I never knew that site existed: #FAA1 Accident/Incident Occurred on: 1987-10-24 Narrative: THE PROPELLER STRUCK THE RUNWAY ON LANDING. THE PILOT REPORTED HE ADJUSTED THE FLAP SETTING AND LANDED ON NOSEWHEEL

The engine has about 3400 total hours (was installed when it had about 1500 hours TT), 830 SMOH by Mattituck to new limits. It's had two Mattituck new limits overhauls since it was put on the plane. The second overhaul was done around 1500 hours and 14 years SMOH, but the compressions didn't seem bad at the time (I think the lowest was 68/80). Maybe the owner had money burning a hole in his pocket. I'm not concerned about any lingering damage if there was a prop strike but I just want to know if there was one because my finance company is basing its valuation on the no damage history claim and also because future buyers will knock down the price for it. I will have an A&P look at these logs but I know you guys have a lot of experience and you can't put a price on that.

Here's the complete logbooks: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0aGPCdxkGcg7cI . Once you click on one of the images, you can quickly scroll through like flipping through the pages. I have ordered the FAA incidents and accident reports. These are the two entries before the engine replacement: The only entry I could find that made me suspicious about a gear up landing or collapsed nose gear was this one saying the gear door was fixed and belly patched, but there's nothing else in the logbooks around that time to confirm damage. Note this was 7 years before the engine was replaced:

Hi Guys, I'm close to making an offer on an M20J and I have been reviewing its logbooks and have a few logbook questions I was hoping you could help me with. The engine was replaced in March of '98. I pulled the FAA records and do not see a 337 for the replacement, is that normal? The engine was previously in N32JC. I'm guessing that plane got a missile/rocket conversion or some other upgraded engine, but I'm not sure why my potential plane's owner would have replaced the original engine. There are no airframe logbook entries to explain why (no mention of damage) and the current owner is not the owner when this happened and he doesn't know why. Before installing the new engine they had a Mattituck overhaul done on it. So it doesn't seem like an economically feasible move unless the previous engine was toast. Does this raise a red flag to you guys? Also, if you look at the engine logbook excerpt (attached), it says the total time in service for the engine was 3471 hours but the total airframe time was 4305. I don't see any logbook entries around 834 total time that indicate a new engine was installed. Lastly, I found a two page entry in the airframe log from '88 (attached) that says the engine was reinstalled after an inspection and the prop was reinstalled after a repair. Does this sound like a prop strike to you? The owner claims no damage history. Thanks for any help you can provide.

Thanks guys, I'll check these out.

Hi Guys, I'm getting ready to buy my first airplane and have decided to get a Mooney (probably a M20C). I'm in the NYC area and fly out of KCDW. Do any of you have a Mooney Service Center in the NYC area (NJ, PA, NY, or CT) that you can recommend for a prebuy and potentially annuals and maintenance going forward? I know C & W Aero Services at KCDW is a MSC, but the reviews I found online weren't flattering. Thanks, Ben