scoobysmak

Congrats on the A&P

Yes, currently in the military getting "sandy" as we speak.

I will have to look into everything more when I return to the US. At this moment my first goal is to see what CFI's are in the area or is the local flight school my only choice. If the local flight school is my only option I am probably better off renting anyway. I would have to schedule my time with them and it could take me longer since I am not spending as much money at their facility (I doubt I would be a higher priority than the students they are training). I could take a couple weeks off work to do a "crash" course (terrible wording) but I would rather space my time out and probably be a bit more relaxed in the learning phase. The only reason I mentioned the 2 week PPL course was because I only found one flight school in my area, that was the only other thing that really popped up on google. If I can find a local CFI with flexible hours and had my own plane it would speed up the process for getting my PPL, I think I would do more than 60 hours of instruction with this arrangement, as you say experience can not be bought. I also think its good to learn during all times of the year, this will teach you in the summer about how much more runway you might need and during the winter what weather you need to avoid so icing doesn't occur. I would be tempted to purchase a piper cherokee 180 since it has a little better speed and range than a Cessna 150. Of course the price goes up and like I mentioned before unless I can make a 180 sip fuel at 6 gph I am wasting money building flight hours. The only real reason for wanting the 180 for a starter plane is I could make my 450 nm trip a little quicker and might not have to stop. The 150 though has proven itself as a really good training platform, not sure if the 180 could take the same amount of abuse (I hope not to abuse anything though). I would only be looking to use this until I build up enough time so the switch to a complex aircraft wouldn't be as expensive on insurance, I am guessing that is the 100hr mark mentioned above but I understand that could be just an estimate. Someone mentioned before, actually getting my IFR certification would be best in my "forever" plane. Is there a particular reason, is the IFR cert for a specific platform and or equipment? If the 180 already had the IFR rating then I could do both before I traded up but If I had to pay a premium on insurance later because I didn't learn in the "forever" plane I see a dilemma. I am sure this is something for an insurance company to answer which brings me to my next question. I have not even looked at insurance but what are some of the common situations that occur that you normally would not see getting an insurance policy for say a car. I don't think USAA does policies for aircraft so I really don't know what direction to look besides the internet. What does it cover, should I have extra coverage on some other policy. I am sure most of these would be answered best by someone in the insurance field but figured I would ask so I halfway know what to expect. Some of the answers to the questions asked above: What is my "mission" (I will add to that question by saying, "mission to get my PPL" by owning my own aircraft)? 1) to gain experience and be a safe pilot 2) to have a more flexible schedule, this will speed up the process to obtain my PPL, NOTE: getting my PPL in a fixed amount of time is not a goal but the sooner I achieve this the sooner I will start logging more hours. 3)be able to build up hours by flying instead of driving my 450 nm trip, this is so I can start my IFR certification sooner, I believe you need so many hours as pilot in command before your allowed to begin your IFR certification (another thing for me to learn about). I still might be better off renting a plane for this entire process (even the 450 nm trips) but until I really get the fine details this is what I see that works out best in my head at least. When you say buy the book and read it, may I ask what book your referring to, is it a generic FAA study guide for test or something else? I don't mind the questions, sometimes the "seemingly" best plan has the biggest flaw in something so obvious it was overlooked. The more thought that goes into something usually results in the best outcome. The final goal of everything would be to have a plane that has good speed and economy, does 90% of what I need, and do everything in my power to reduce the fixed cost that will occur just by owning any aircraft (things like owner assisted annuals included plus getting more hours and IFR certs to reduce insurance cost).

At this moment something local, not many options. I did the google and found that a company called A.F.I.T. offers a PPL in 14 days, seemingly had good reviews but admit I am very skeptical on a program like that, plus downloaded the brochure and my virus scan deleted it saying it was infected??? Not a whole lot of confidence after that. Looking around it says the average student takes about 55-65 hours of flight instruction before they get certified. At the local flight school just the cost to rent the plane for 60 hours was around $5500-$6900 depending on the plane you wanted to learn in, only 150's and 172's offered. I glanced at prices for used aircraft in the bargain area as you might call it. The 150's can be seen for 15K and up, the 172's seemed to start at 22K and up. I also saw a few piper 140's in the 18k area. The cruise speed of the 150 and the piper 140 is pretty much the same but the piper 140's range was to my 450 nmile mark (I do not know if that included reserves or not though). I really didn't focus on the 172 since it was more pricey. I did see where the 150 looks like it burns 6 gal per hour Vs the 8 gals per hour of the piper for the same speed, of course honestly you need to build up time not mileage as a new pilot. Renting the plane seem to be the most costly part of getting your license, probably about 75-80% of it. Things I don't know yet, can you hire a CFI to give you personal instruction so it would be most convenient for both parties involved, plus might save a little bit of money (I will admit not all instructors are of the same caliber just because they can instruct, put a buyer beware warning on this one). Next would a flight school train someone in their own plane or still make you rent on of theirs? How much money would it really save buying your own plane to train on? Say it takes a year to get your PPL, it cost 100 a month for a tie down spot (don't think I would spend the money for a hanger on any of these aircraft, probably not many have in the past either). How much money in annuals would I be spending? Insurance I have no clue about. Does someone need insurance just to fly or only when they own an aircraft? Owning an aircraft and not even have a PPL, I could see a very costly insurance bill. With all this added up probably makes more since just to rent the plane but I would rather spend 20k and fly around a bit, learn the pitfalls and then sell it for a 3-4k loss. In renting a plane I can't fly at my convenience and I pretty much burned an extra 3k with nothing to show for it. if I bought a plane I am pretty sure I would start building up hours much faster for lower insurance rates to follow. The downside to purchasing a plane, say the motor needs a complete rebuild before I even complete my PPL, a costly expense. Like life its a gamble, just have to gamble smartly with the most "correct" information you can get.

I will quote this from a different thread, "questions on M20K/252/Encore" I looked at the deltahawk page again, the dry weight difference between the Lycoming IO-360 A Series engine and the 200HP deltahawk engine is one pound. Installed weight was 20 Lbs heavier for the diesel, it does depend on how far forward that 20 Lbs actually is but don't think CG limits would be too far off. That 20 Lbs might also just be for the type aircraft they used, Velocity pusher configuration. The main thing I saw in the post above that caught my eye was the following, " Central Cylinder in Omaha quoted me 39,000 with new cylinders but no exhaust so probably 50,000 after all is said and done if I do most of the removal and installation work." I know the engine quoted was a 6 cylinder and not a 4 cylinder but the cost was nothing to sneeze at. How often should someone expect to spend this much on engine maint if say they flew 200 hours per year running LOP and did good routine/preventive maintenance? I know I should never buy a plane and count on getting an STC approved, wait for the approval and then buy. For all I know in a year after I have my PPL, deltahawk might be out of business or just producing things for the military and don't have time for GA aircraft. I will focus more of my attention in the M20J territory but in a year plus after I get my PPL I will referrer back to this thread to see how much has changed.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post a bit but the business aspect of flying is just me in the plane, unless the building gets legs and moves I have to fly to it. No other company employee would be with me unless it was for pleasure anyway. I looked at the M20K (think that is the 252), nice to cruise at around 180kts Vs the 150kts (reference from the J model planning posted above) but in my business trips it only saved me roughly 30 minutes and cost me more than a dollar per minute difference in just fuel; if fuel flow in Gals per hour is at 13.5 for the M20K and 8.7 for the M20J. I am pretty sure the insurance and extra maint cost would add up as well for the M20K over the M20J. Once I get a few hours under the belt flying IFR i would expect my normal cost to be around 10-12K a year just to have the plane, to fly it is extra (this is insurance, maint cost, hanger fees, and medical certifications). At first I could see insurance being way more expensive but over time that should improve I would hope. I currently would have the plane in class C airspace, it does convert to class D airspace from 2350 until 0600 local time. This is another need to upgrade the electronics when ADS-B gets enforced, still a few years away though. Maybe there is something I am overlooking but it appears the M20J is the best looking option for me at this moment. Of course it will probably take me more than a year to get my PPL, I will have to re-evaluate all the options again but so far have always been drawn into the Mooneys. The drive on the ground is just at 600 miles, the straight line path from airport to airport is 390 nmiles. I gave some extra for following vector airways for IFR flight but don't know exactly how much further it would make the trip then a little more for getting in the landing sequence (I am sure I will learn more about this stuff while getting the PPL). I understand that maybe I am just plane crazy (sorry couldn't resist), I appreciate everyone's opinion, usually I find someone that is wearing the T-shirt has a much better understanding than someone looking in the store for one. If there are things that most people overlook I am all ears.

Thanks for all the quick replies. I will give a bit more background and ask "what would you do?" I have a business partnership that in about 5 years I would expect to develop in to me making 450 nm trips every month to every other month (this is flying not driving). To drive this takes me around 8-10 hours since its not a straight shot over the interstate system and that's if I don't get stuck in heavy traffic in areas like Atlanta. I understand that flying the weather can set you back, I will be able to plan my trips a few days out and it would be at my leisure but I would rather spend 3-4 hours in transit than 8-10 each way. The wife would probably travel with me about 1/3rd of the time if she overall didn't mind flying in a smaller plane (I asked her this and she said she wouldn't mind but I have seen some people just get out of a smaller aircraft that the wind has a greater effect and go, never again). The son is actually a step son for me, its kinda complicated but the father has put his foot down about personal aircraft. Not sure if his opinion would change but they pretty much have 50/50 custody so the wife does not want to jeopardize her visitation even though she believes he couldn't do anything about it, but law firms aren't cheap if he tried it. This is another reason I can't move closer to the business partnership. I do kinda like the idea of getting a 150 to train in and then sell it, I would be tempted to take it the 450 nm though (I travel there about once every 4-6 months now). Something with a bit more speed I think would help but honestly to leave town VFR is probably not smart unless I have the weather in my back pocket. I should want to learn on "steam" gauges but admit I am an electronic gadget guy, love the glass cockpit and know that's what I want for the end product. That is part of the reason to modify a plane for me, if I am running 50% of the time by myself or with one adult, why get a long body? They are newer but not sure if how much that really helps, in 1986-the mid 90's the glass cockpit wasn't really an option. I saw a used 2005 M20M Bravo that had a Garmin 1000 installed, it cost $290k. Say I bought a used M20J for $65k and upgraded the electronics for another $50k did a few speed mods like the one piece underbelly for another $10k. I spent $125k for an aircraft that is more economical and less than half the price. I would give up the Garmin 1000, some speed and probably comfort for more than 2 adults on board (including the pilot). (Cover your eyes if you don't want to see all the newbie questions) Things that I have no clue about are maintenance cost for each, I am sure the 2005 wouldn't require as much at first but eventually if the part will wear out it would have to be replaced. Not sure if the insurance for each plane would be about the same either? When looking at adds I see the engine has say 976 hours on it under the column, SMOH (I am going to show my lack of knowledge but guess this means Since Major Over Haul)? I have seen other statements like TBO of 2000 hours, I figure this is how many hours until you have to do a major over haul (is this considered a rebuild)? I also was under the impression that you could only rebuild an engine once then you had to purchase a new one. This was part of the delta hawk conversion thought process, looking at the website, it was pretty much $70k for the motor but even the comparative HP avgas engine cost 80% of this and didn't have all the parts (this is where I should revert back to my first post and look in the mirror, don't believe everything you read on the internet). That $70k also included an engine monitoring system, looking at JPI, some of those are in the $4-8k range in price (not sure if its comparable though). Overall I look at this as a hobby though, I will never re coupe all the money I would spend but it will make life easier in some respects, plus I have always wanted to fly myself. Taking the airlines is for the birds, the freedom to go where I want when I want, weather permitting, is priceless. I also agree that looking back 10 years ago I didn't see half the stuff in my life happen as planned, things change but I would rather put a plan together and change it than not have a plan at all.

Well just wanted to say hello and thank the admin and mods for having this forum. For now you can say I am a bit of a dreamer so I expect to be brought back to reality. I am looking for an economical plane but yet something that can handle IFR fairly well and the faster I get to my destination the better. I would normally be flying around 450 nm trips in the southeast but could see trips all over the US, Alaska, Canada, Mexico and Bahamas on the radar. I would say 45% of the time it would be just me, another 35% of the time the wife would be with me, 10% our son that is almost 7 would be with us, and the last 10% might be 4 adults for shorter trips (450 nm or less). I realize that with anything more than 2 adults and a child (say under the age of 13) that I might have to plan my route for pit stops. Honestly anything with the wife I probably need to land at around the 4 hour mark or she might get a little bit uh.....upset with mother nature (then of course me). I know some about aircraft but never really got into the rules and regulations to know what I could or could not do (STC, TSO and the true definitions are not something I now how to find or what I am looking for but should learn). With that being said I also do not have a pilots license at all, I understand that for an IFR plane with retract gear I will pay a premium until I have built up flight hours but I like to purchase what I want to use the first time and not the third. I also see that there are instructors that are specific to mooneys and probably would go this route anyway. I plan to keep the plane as long as I can fly, hopefully at least another 30 plus years. Here is my where my questions start, I would expect to spend a total of around 200K for a plane that suits me. I don't really care about resale value but If selling a J model Vs an F model with 201 speed mods gives 30% percent more return for basically the same plane I would rather start with the J model anyway. The only reason I see to buy an older plane, anything before the J model, is I would modify it for me anyway so why pay the extra for something I am going to replace. For example I would like to put a nice glass cockpit in. I would love to know if a Garmin G950 has an STC for a mooney M20 or if the G500/600 is the "best" I could get. Why purchase the J model for the nice insturment layout when a week later the entire panel is replaced. I would probably put any speed mod on I could for any model (within reason, $20k for a 1mph increase is not worth it but maybe 15mph or more would be). I wouldn't care about paint at this point because it would get repainted anyway. The last mod I would love to do is modify the plane for a delta-hawk 200HP diesel engine. I called the company and they said they can't release what planes they are working on getting certified (if that is what you call it). I give this engine a 50% chance of hitting the market, not sure the reality of getting it certified for a mooney. I am pretty sure I would have to change the tanks at this point. If I could cruise at 160 KTS and sip 7-8 gals an hour I would be pretty happy (not sure if this is realistic or not, some of this is based on an engine that has only done test flights with the company and doesn't have any "true product evaluations" at this time). Of course finding a plane in good condition so you have a nice foundation is usually the best way to go. The only other thing I have found interesting is one site I visited talked about the M20F executive built in 1967 was the fastest due to the way they did the rivets, after this they started cutting cost and from 1968 and after the planes were about 5 mph slower? If this is the case would a 1967 with speed mods be more econimical than an M20J? I can't believe everything I read on the internet but figure someone here might give a better insight on this comment. Just wonder anyones thoughts on the matter.