CJSmith

Just kidding. 180hp fits mission.

Jim- You've contributed greatly. I, and I'm sure others would continue to benefit if you have more to say. My basis of comparison with maintenance costs is a Commanche 180 and Arrow 180. I can afford them. The evidence says to purchase an Arrow will cost more than an M20C, which is more than a Commanche all variables being equal. The listed M20C is over-priced by at least 12k. It's worth a glance due to the A/P. 0 time engine an unknown. It has goo-ga in the panel but the wrong kind. In my mind the 6-pack is the best feature. No one has offered up any maintenace gotchas that should scare me away. Should we talk Bonanzas?

Great comments. Well said. I get it. What I don't get is how many don't. And for dubious reasons. As recommended, I won't commit before flying. I have only one major Mooney concern, once I understand fair pricing. Maintenance. Although important, the buying price is just an entrance fee. Sustaining airworthiness is the real measure. A Mooney is unique enough that my impression is it will require more effort than average for a 180 hp type. So be it. Most here indicate it's well worth the effort over a Cherokee compromise. That's great to hear. Confirms my suspicions. A good CFI friend of mine; an older pilot such as I, said just yesterday. I would outgrow a Cherokee before the first annual, and that I've been flying too long. Some of you said the same thing. So few know Mooneys, it's hard to find an authoritative ally to talk pricing, costs, etc. Only my closest friends would tell me what they paid for airplanes too. But none of them have bought a Mooney. M20C remains very high on a dwindling list.

Barry-Thanks for the clarification regarding AAA. I'd prefer there were more reputable and successful brokers/dealers and service centers, not less. Heaven knows small business is under attack from a number of angles enough as is. A companies' response to a problem such as you encountered says more about them in the end. Bad things happen to all of us. No company is totally immune. If I were them, I'd consider a regular and recurring pre-flight, flight, post-flight sequence on all aircraft in inventory. Isn't there something to be said about machines sitting? I've noticed airplanes in dealers listings for over a year. Yet they never update the hours advertised. I assume the aircraft are sitting around. But, they are the ones in business so they must know something I don't. On another note. I continue to be baffled by the bad vibes people have about Mooneys. We have a saying at work. "If you're scared, say you're scared". When I ask why, the quick answer is always they are too small. As you would expect, most of these guys haven't been in one, but they "know of a guy" that had one. This attitude about Mooneys is no different at the airport, in EAA meetings, and among airplane drivers with decades of flying. I will have to see for myself. And that's what folks on this forum would suggest. But, in a year of reading the MAPALOG. My take away is: Landing accidents, landing accidents, landing accidents. Gotta go to only experienced Mooney CFIs. Don't get work done except at an MSC, etc. Good grief, really? From outside looking in, makes one wonder about the type.

All of you have been truly helpfull. I realize that someone owning a Mooney might have a certain bias, but there's probably a good reason. And it comes from your experience. I'm encouraged to hear the C-model might fit the mission, and it appears my instincts over out growing a Cherokee type are not far off. It does surprise me that so many Mooneys still have original shotgun panels, but it's understandable that an owner would resist upgrades if the C-model was considered an interim step-up aircraft. It's tempting to upgrade a panel only if it includes Garmin stuff and A/Ps, but why not at least shuffle the current instruments to where they should be? I still don't have confidence I understand the wildly varied pricing on C-models. Barry's note regarding the state of the original engine in this aircraft at pre-buy is VERY troubling considering the brokerage firm's reported reputation. Then it comes back on the market marked up that much? Barry-did it take any unusual effort on the part of the pre-buy team to uncover that engine's issues? Would normal pre-buy technique have uncovered it in your estimation? Would regular flying by the seller/owner have discovered the problem? Kudos to those folks that found it. I don't intend to disparage any company's reputation. Especially since I have no personal experience with that company. But MAPA refers to them often, and some of you have referenced their reputation. I'm not the kind that sees a crook around every corner. Stuff happens. But for a first time buyer this confirms I'm treading into a mine field and a buddy just ahead of me heard a "click". Chris

My brother has the nicest Cherokee 140 I've ever seen. I'm still jealous of it but fear I would want to move up in a short while. I figure as good a pilot as he is he'll probably move up soon as well. Hope he can keep it for the young folks. The 28-180 was a compromise idea. I'd probably want a bit more sooner rather than later on that too. My concern is a maintenance hog or too much airplane. I don't need long distance or hard IMC. I get plenty of the high stakes stuff at work. Guys in my income bracket buying Lances, 210s, and even J-models are going to be slaves to the man for a while. Whether it be U. Sam , A&Ps, or divorce lawyers, some will have to pick one or more. So this is where I'm coming from. The C seems to fit, but edgy if a good one's going to run 60k. I want to be smiling when the hangar door opens, not shaking and looking over my shoulder. Throw a rod at 40k, I'll survive. Throw it at 60k and I'll have serious 'splaining to do. Anyone flown with a less than happy spouse? How's that work for ya? You folks are great. Chris

I must admit I keep coming back to a Mooney. In the last year when I began looking around and learning, I found myself gravitating to any Mooney on the ramp or in the air. There is a pull that way but it is not from any flight experience, so I can't say I'm hooked. The 0-360, speed, and looks, keep the airplane on my short list. The simple systems help. It may be I'm drawn to them from my high school years working the line at an MSC. Back then I thought everyone owned Mooneys. They were everywhere. Now among professional aviators at work, all I hear are rumors and comments why NOT to buy a Mooney (helicopter guys, what do we know about F/W aircraft anyway?). In the past year, three guys at work have bought airplanes. A 210, Lance, and ratty Arrow 200. 6 others have a 177RG, Vagabond, Mustang II, AA-1B, RV-6, and my Bro's 28-140. One other had an M20E his partner totaled on a forced landing short of the runway. Before I could get a ride of course. Engine valve train failure. Can you imagine the conversations? "You're crazy...Mooneys are too tight, look at so-an-so's E, the engine overheats with that tight cowl, and failed etc, etc. "I can't see out of them things". "Get a 182, or better yet a 210". "With Mooneys no mechanic will work on 'em". I wonder, how many of these guys will still have their airplanes 18 months from now? I have to remind them I'm on a 28-180 budget. Curious, no one has a Bonanza. Chris

By the way, I almost pulled the trigger on a Cheetah. It flew that well (owner is smaller than I, and the temps were only 10c). I hadn't been in a Grumman since the late 70's. Wife said no. She didn't want me committing to the wrong airplane just because of the market. She doesn't feel I've done enough comparison, and she doesn't want to have to put up with this nonsense again. Her comments were something like this: "You've been flying the same helicopter at work for over 20 years. I'm still not sure you know what you're doing. What makes you think I'll jump in just any airplane you pick? You've got all summer to figure it out" she says. "Isn't Mooney a religion?" So I made some more phone calls. A good friend I only get to visit 2 or 3 times a year, owns a Commanche 180. Loves it, and does most of the grunt maintenance including owner assist annuals. However, he did his CFI training and checkride in an older M20. J-bar, Hyd flaps etc. He is convinced it would cost no more, and probably less to maintain than his Commanche. His last few years have been well within my budget. I was hesitant because of fuel tanks, steel corrosion, and donut issues not found on some other makes. He did warn, that I should fly one before settling on a vintage Mooney. (I havn't been in a J-model since 1995, and never in a C, E, or F) Two things he mentioned: 1. Controls were quite stiff (pre 1964 maybe?. I wonder about rigging? It was a rental). 2. You sit low with a bit less outside vis, and resulting awkward throttle/prop control location. But, he also confirms a C would fit my mission and should be near the top of the list along with an Arrow 180. (We are both fans of carburated 0-360s (The difference in cylinder expense by almost half for one reason). Both he and my current CFI are religious carb heat users, no matter what carburated airplane. I wish I could get even half you guys in one room. It's difficult out here, and I don't know what I don't know. Chris

All comments have been very appreciated. Some more questions: On the listing in question. How can a newly overhauled engine be 0 time? No test runs or test flights? And how long will it sit with 0 time advertised? I have to assume the airplane is not being flown regularly. A lot of folks on this forum were around when a C-model sold for these prices. But in today's market? It's still a C-model. Does it really need a storm scope and S-Tec 30? 62k and no 430? From what I've read this Broker gets PO'd if you offer what he considers too low. 90% of my flying will be within a 200 mile radius. 40% with the wife, 10% with wife and 5 year old Grandson. 5% to fly 600 miles to visit two sons. As you all know the mission tends to modify or evolve depending on the aircraft. No one can pinpoint a mission statement as accurately as he may think. Not at my ownership experience level. The Tiger and 28-180 are good aircraft, but on my list purely because I've been told repeatedly they will cost half what a C-model costs to maintain per year. I don't have the experience to confirm or dispute this. Cheers, Chris

For those that don't mind evaluations: I've monitored this forum and the Mapalist for quite a while. A vintage Mooney has been one of my top four possible buys, but I have not been able to get my arms around Mooney prices. The link below has me totally baffled. MAPA Log has detailed pricing published every once in a while, but higher than Vref. This one seems high. Is that what a low SMOH engined C-model is going to cost to buy? http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20C-RANGER/1968-MOONEY-M20C-RANGER/1170084.htm I'm not loyal to any brand, but I 've learned a Mooney is quite efficient with a Lyc 360. Grumman Tiger, and PA28-180, are on the short list. Cheers, Chris