Hot Starts IO-360 - now as easy as cold starts!!

[FlyDave]

I got a ride back from the avionics shop from a friend in his F model a few weeks ago. He had landed 45 minutes prior to us departing and I was sitting in the back of the plane for the flight. I watched (as I always watch how people manage their airplane) as he set the plane up for a hot start differently than I've ever heard someone do a hot start. I was AMAZED when he started the plane - NO DIFFERENT RESULT THAN A DECENT COLD START!

So I tried it today - 3 times and it worked perfectly every time.

Here is the procedure:

1. Mixture - FULL RICH
2. Prop - FULL FORWARD
3. Throttle - FULL FORWARD for 10-12 seconds then set to 1,000 RPM/Idle (you should know where 1,000 RPM is on your throttle)
4. Mixture Full lean
5. Crank the engine and it'll start in a couple of blades
6. Advance the mixture appropriately

I used to get surging after a hot start but I didn't today with this procedure.

I'm not sure why this works better than my old hot start procedure but I think it may let the pressure in the fuel lines equalize between the vapor locked area and where the fuel is still liquid instead of forcing liquid fuel into the fuel lines with the boost pump for 1 second. Anyone with knowledge of how the fuel injection system operates please provide an explanation.

The first time you do this you'll say "No Way!"

The second time you do this you'll say "Friggin' YEAH!!!

The third time you do this you better have a towel handy to clean yourself up.....

 

Dave

[Super Dave]

Boost pump on throughout?

[FlyDave]

Boost pump on throughout?

No boost pump at all.

[Bob_Belville]

Do you think this is really different than the standard procedure? With all the pushing and pulling you've put the throttle and mixture back where it was when you shut it down which is SOP.

[FlyDave]

Do you think this is really different than the standard procedure? With all the pushing and pulling you've put the throttle and mixture back where it was when you shut it down which is SOP.

You'll spare your starter and battery from a LOT of wear using this procedure.

[Super Dave]

What was your old hot start procedure FlyDave?

[NotarPilot]

Well I'll be damned Dave, I tried it tonight and it worked!  It took about 6 turns for me but definitely a lot faster than the old hot start method you showed me.

[Bob_Belville]

This comprehensive check list is not original with me but it works with my E.  

 

Cold starting the IO-360 in the M20E

·         Master switch on

·         Throttle, prop and mixture controls full forward

·         Boost pump on 5 seconds

·         Mixture to IDLE/CUTOFF

·         Throttle: pull back to ~ 1000 rpm

·         Engage starter

·         When the engine fires, release starter key and firmly (but not rapidly) move mixture control to full rich

·         After engine is running, lean mixture control out for smooth idle

 

Recommended Engine Shutdown Procedure in the M20E

·         Idle the engine at 1000-1100 RPM

·         Pull the mixture control to idle /cutoff from this idle speed

·         DON”T TOUCH THE THROTTLE. Leave it at the setting it was at for the 1000-1100 RPM idle speed used to shut down

·         Ignition switch off after the engine spools down

·         Master switch off

 

Hot Start procedure for the IO-360 in the M20E

·         Master switch on

·         DON’T TOUCH THE THROTTLE, PROP OR MIXTURE CONTROLS. (Throttle @ ~1000 RPM Position, Mixture @ IDLE/CUTOFF, prop @ full forward)

·         Engage the starter

·         Expect about 15-20 blades before the engine fires

·         When the engine fires, smooth (not rapidly) move the mixture control to full rich

·         After idling, lean the mixture for smooth operation on the ground and during taxi

 

Flood engine start procedure for the IO-360 in the M20E

·         Master switch on

·         Throttle, prop and mixture full forward

·         Boost pump on 3 seconds, then off

·         Mixture to IDLE/CUTOFF

·         Throttle full OPEN

·         Engage the starter

·         Slowly pull the throttle back towards idle as the engine is turning over with the starter engaged

·         When the throttled is reduced to about ½ to ¾ towards the idle position, the engine should fire after the throttle hits the position for the perfect fuel/air mixture for starting

·         When the engine fires, smoothly increase the mixture to full rich

·         Bring the throttle back to the normal idle speed (1000-1100RPM)

·         After idling awhile, lean the mixture for smooth operation on the ground and during taxi

[FlyDave]

What was your old hot start procedure FlyDave?

From this thread:

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/914-revisiting-hot-start-recommendations/

 

Here is my OLD hot start procedure

 

1. Mixture - Full rich
3. Prop - High RPM
5. Throttle - Full open
7. Master on
9. Boost pump for ~1 second
11. Throttle - crack to idle (works anywhere from 700 - 1200+ RPM)
13. Start engine - it will take anywhere from 5-10 blades

[Bob_Belville]

ISTM. if the Mixture stays full rich you are very likely to flood while cranking.

[FlyDave]

ISTM. if the Mixture stays full rich you are very likely to flood while cranking.

Geeze...Sorry - I must have been drinking the night I posted on the original thread. Here is my OLD hot start procedure:

 

1. Mixture, prop and throttle full forward
2. Boost pump for 1 second
3. Throttle to idle (~1,000 RPM)
4. Mixture full lean
5. Crank engine
6. When it starts advance the mixture appropriately

Using the new procedure the engine start much, much faster and doesn't surge.

[mike_elliott]

^{Try this hotstart procedure for the IO360 Lycoming.}

 

^{Prop Full}

^{Throttle 1000 RPM mark}

^{Mixture at idle cutoff.}

^{Crank and slowly advance mixture. It will catch usually before you are half way to full rich. Once it does, go to full rich.}

 

^{takes about 4 blades usually on my F, and has worked on many students J's and E's also.}

 

^{Don Maxwell taught me this technique, and ill bet he has hot started more IO360 mooneys than just about any man alive}

 

 

^{Mike Elliott}

^{N9427v @ FA40}

[fantom]

Same technique I've been using for a loooooong time, Mike. In fact, I may have taught it to Dmax

 

FlyDave's new technique is interesting but I don't understand what moving the throttle full forward and holding it there accomplishes. All that does is change the position of the air flow control in the throttle body. If the engine is not cranking, there is no airflow therefore nothing happening by holding it full forward. The procedure with starting cranking at full forward moves a large volume of air to lean it to a starting mixture.

[mike_elliott]

I kinda thought Dmax didn't come up with this on his own .

For those of you looking for a good way to hot start, do please try this. I find hot starts in IO360's easier than cold starts now. The theory is simple. At some point, by slowly adding fuel, the fuel/air mixture is "right" for the temp and condition the engine is in and it will then catch. Here in FL, before doing anything, I check to see if I have fuel pressure in the green and I may turn on the boost pump with the mixture in Idle cutoff just to pressurize the system if it is down. That prevents it from dying once it catches, which it did on me one time until I figured out this FL heat help percolate the lines dry

 

Mike

[FloridaMan]

I have the SlickStart system on my M20F. Never had a starting problem except when the left mag died. 

 

Parker was able to get my airplane started on the right mag by itself after a lot of trying. I thought that was pretty impressive. 

[jetdriven]

I kinda thought Dmax didn't come up with this on his own .

For those of you looking for a good way to hot start, do please try this. I find hot starts in IO360's easier than cold starts now. The theory is simple. At some point, by slowly adding fuel, the fuel/air mixture is "right" for the temp and condition the engine is in and it will then catch. Here in FL, before doing anything, I check to see if I have fuel pressure in the green and I may turn on the boost pump with the mixture in Idle cutoff just to pressurize the system if it is down. That prevents it from dying once it catches, which it did on me one time until I figured out this FL heat help percolate the lines dry

 

Mike

 

We've noticed the same thing, Mike.  Sometimes it wont stay running just after a hot start unless you run the fuel pump for a few seconds.  The fuel pressure won't stay in the green otherwise. Getting the RPM to 1500 for a few seconds blows the hot air out of the cowling then its normal ops after that.

[midlifeflyer]

FlyDave's new technique is interesting but I don't understand what moving the throttle full forward and holding it there accomplishes. All that does is change the position of the air flow control in the throttle body. If the engine is not cranking, there is no airflow therefore nothing happening by holding it full forward. The procedure with starting cranking at full forward moves a large volume of air to lean it to a starting mixture.

Has anyone figured out whether (or if so why) the throttle/mixture full before returning to the start position has any effect? Interestingly, it's identical to the POH hot start procedure except for the throttle/mixture full interlude.

 

I have 3 M20J models available to me in a flying club. A month ago I flew one for a trip and had trouble starting hot after a lunch stop.

 

Friday, a much warmer day, I took a different J for a trip and after a 45 minute stop in 90° heat decided to give this technique a try. Sure enough, as advertised, the prop cranked 3-4 times and caught and ran with no problem.

 

Just the different airplane? Or is there actually something to moving everything full forward before starting?

[tomn]

I gave this a try twice yesterday - I have had many issues with hot starts the past few years, some of them fuel system related (all fixed now). I think the E model is one of the worst to hot start from what I have read with the dog house trapping the heat on the top of the engine. It did not work for me first try although the engine did try to catch almost immediately which I have never had happen before. On the first start, the plane had been sitting for about three hours. After it almost started twice using the new method, I switched to the slowly pushing the mixture in method while cranking - it caught quickly.

The second hot start was later after a shutting down to fuel. It was only off for about 10 minutes. I tried the new method again and it almost caught immediately but would not keep running. I went straight to the slowly pushing the mixture in method and it caught after about 15-20 baldes. Restart after shutdown for only a few minutes has always been the worst for me - this worked much better.

I have used the method Bob outlined for the past year or two with success but it sometimes takes a while. I'm going to keep experimenting with this. I'll try leaving the mixture full longer next to see if that helps release the vapor locking that I think is a big part of the problem.

Tom

[Bob_Belville]

I picked up a little trick for hot starts @ quick turn around fuel stops. Leave the oil filler door open for the time your filling the tanks and making a pit stop to let hot air out. It doesn't provide a vent for the top of the cylinders because of the baffle seals but it should help a little with heat buildup.

[J0nathan225]

Sitting at SSI they pulled me into the hanger to hopefully cool down the engine and starter after my 4+ failed attempts.  

 

ALL full fwd

Boost pump 3secs

Mix idle cut off

Starter engage while slowly reducing throttle and when starting to crank slowly advance mixture to full rich. 

 

I got lots of small bouts of firings, but couldn't get it right to have it roar to life. 

[HRM]

On 7/14/2013 at 8:42 PM, Bob_Belville said:

Do you think this is really different than the standard procedure? With all the pushing and pulling you've put the throttle and mixture back where it was when you shut it down which is SOP.

...and that has always worked for me in the hottest and steamiest of Tejas summers. At the end of the day, if the IO-360 is not starting in two or three blades, then something religious has gone wrong with the holy trinity: fuel-spark-air. All these voodoo incantations and such are just blasphemy.

[Bob_Belville]

13 minutes ago, J0nathan225 said:

Sitting at SSI they pulled me into the hanger to hopefully cool down the engine and starter after my 4+ failed attempts.  

 

ALL full fwd

Boost pump 3secs

Mix idle cut off

Starter engage while slowly reducing throttle and when starting to crank slowly advance mixture to full rich. 

 

I got lots of small bouts of firings, but couldn't get it right to have it roar to life. 

Jon, I suppose you've solved this by now, I was at the caravan Clinic and I'm just seeing your message.

 

Our IO360 is prone to flooding and if it would start that would be the most likely reason.  

 

Here' my hot start check list followed by the one for flooded

 

Throttle & Mixture:   leave in Shut Down Positions

           Engage starter until Engine Fires Then:

           Advance Mixture Slowly

 Here's my flooded start procedure though I have not managed to flood it in a long time using the above hot start procedure:

Throttle & Mixture:  Full Open

Boost Pump: On for 3 sec.    Mixture: Idle Cut Off

Engage Starter & Reduce Throttle Slowly To Idle

Mixture : Enrich Slowly    Throttle: 1100 RPM

Boost pump on if Engine Runs Rough

 A weak battery, slow starter, or fouled plugs will make starting tougher. 

Bob

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, J0nathan225 said:

Sitting at SSI they pulled me into the hanger to hopefully cool down the engine and starter after my 4+ failed attempts.  

 

ALL full fwd

Boost pump 3secs

Mix idle cut off

Starter engage while slowly reducing throttle and when starting to crank slowly advance mixture to full rich. 

 

I got lots of small bouts of firings, but couldn't get it right to have it roar to life. 

Cause you were flooding it.

Try this.

1100 for shut down.

Don't touch anything.

Crank.

When it catches.  Slowly move throttle forward.

Might have to 2 hand the throttle to keep things happy.

 

You know you have flooded it when you advance the mixture and it dies.

Then go with throttle wide open.  No mixture then crank.   Be ready to two hand the mixture and throttle.

 

[J0nathan225]

I let it sit in a hanger for 30 mins to cool the starter (after 5-6 attempts) and my frustrations haha. Normal start no boost pump worked after that, thanks for the help! The flight home was exciting with thermals and the generator CB popping. G2 helped me identify a lack of charging first so I turned off some equipment and reset Generator CB, it did not repop, but mooney amps gauge was showing 35-40 amps which seems very high to me. 

[Piloto]

Good tip Dave, makes sense. When you set mixture and throttle forward you are relieving fuel pressure build and releasing a small amount of fuel into the cylinders. Check your fuel pressure before opening mixture.  Will try it at my next refueling. 

Thanks

José