Downgrading from a "K" to a "J"

[dfurst]

Having read all the posts of people upgrading from a J model to a K model I find myself seriously considering going the other way and trading in my 231 for a 201.

 

I have a 1980 M20K 231 with the LB engine that has about 1400 hours on it.  Good avionics including a GNS480, MX20, auto pilot and all the normal things you would assume a 231 has.  Paint and interior are less than 9 years old.  I have had the plane for 4 years and it is a great example of a 231.  I fell in to this plane while trying to sell my M20C.  It is a long story but basically I was able to work a deal where it made more sense to trade in the C for the K rather than sell the C outright.  It was strange times 4 years ago as the airplane market along with the overall market were tanking, but interest rates were dropping too.

 

After 4 years I really think this is too much plane for the type of flying I do.  I have been a pilot for 16 years and I have just over 700 hours.  I am flying about 50 hours a year now, most of it local hamburger runs with an occasional weekend trip over 300 miles away.  One big factor is that I am not instrument rated. When I got this plane everyone told me it was the perfect platform to get rated.  The problem is my professional life and personal life barely allow me enough time to fly 50 hours a year.  Every time I start the instrument training it gets sidetracked. I don't see any reason this is going to change in the next 5 to 10 years.

 

So I find myself with a 6 cylinder turbocharged Mooney that never gets above 10,000 feet.  Add to that built in Oxygen that I never use and I start to question the need.  Maintenance costs more then a J model and I am burning more fuel.  I don't look forward to the added expense of overhauling a larger engine or a turbocharger when the time comes.

 

Looking at the J models on the market now I can sell my 1980 K, buy a newer J with less time on the engine and I only give up 10 KTS at the altitudes I fly. I might end up spending more on the J then I get for the K but I am OK with that for a newer plane with less time on the engine and lower maintenance costs.

 

My local shop, who are Mooney experts, and my plane broker think I am crazy.  The broker has been dragging his feet getting back to me because he does not want me to sell it.  Have you ever heard of a broker who doesn't want to make a commision?  

 

So, am I crazy?

[DanM20C]

I don't think your crazy at all.  It is clear that the 231 doesn't fit your mission.

[John Pursell]

The big red flag for me is how much more is your 231 costing you vs. the cost of purchasing an unknown plane.

[Jerry 5TJ]

The transaction costs of a trade may push out your break-even point many years, especially if you have to pay sales tax on the new plane.  

How about finding a good partner?

 

 

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

I traded up from a J to a K three years ago.  It would be a cold day in hell before I gave it up for a normally asperated bird.  I only burn 9.5 GPH which is not much different from the J and mx costs have been about the same.  When compared to my J the K get's better climb performance, build in 02, a better autopilot, and hot prop for the same cost.  

[dfurst]

So I was looking for a partner which is what started this. I talked to a few people, took 2 for a ride.  All of them loved the plane but couldn't justify the cost vs the 201s they were looking at. That was sort of the last step for me.

 

I can keep looking for a partner that really wants a 231 while trying to sell it.  If someone comes along I can always keep it.

[Hank]

There's someone on this board in Colorado with a J who really misses his turbo. Maybe you and him could arrange a deal? Somebody "Brown" maybe? It may be worth your time to do some digging through the Member list.

[Bennett]

I think having an aircraft that fits your current needs and wants makes sense.  Both Js and Ks are fine aircraft (I've had them both), and when I bought my newest Mooney, I though long and hard about what I really want to do with the aircraft for 99% of the time I fly. I decided on the relative simplicity, and a bit lower maintenance costs, of the J.  No regrets, as this airplane has fully met my expectations. No doubt there will be sales tax and unknown expenses in changing aircraft, but long term, you will have the airplane you feel most comfortable with. 

[KSMooniac]

There's someone on this board in Colorado with a J who really misses his turbo. Maybe you and him could arrange a deal? Somebody "Brown" maybe? It may be worth your time to do some digging through the Member list.

 

He wants to go back to a Rocket... he has one years ago and that ruined him for "normal" Mooneys.

 

I'm not sure what to advise... will you be similarly constrained for the foreseeable future?  Do you not use the plane more b/c you don't have the IR?  Would you get more utility from it once you have the IR?  (ie business or family trips)  The transaction costs and first year de-squawking an unknown used plane are non-trivial, and could possibly wipe out any paper savings you see today.  I would think long and hard about how you plan to utilize any plane in the next 5 years and be honest with yourself.  Perhaps biting the bullet and doing a 10 day intensive IR course might be in order?

[aaronk25]

The points in your argument makes sense however there is a hell of a cost in dealing with the "new to you" items that need to be fixed after acquiring your new plane.

If you plane is a known and your buying a unknown, plan 5-10k at least. What if the J you buy sat for 6 months and the cam goes out....there is 10k....

Just thoughts

[Seth]

I see you're located in in the Washington, DC area.  Where are you based?  Are you talking about the guys at Freeway?  Webber? 

 

I understand your point - you don't use the K to it's capacity, do not have your IFR ticket, and rarely go high.  You're not flying long distnaces, and burning more fuel than necessary during your hamburger runs.  Then again, you have a great plane, one you can grow in, that you know and hopefully doesn't give you too much trouble.

 

The suggestion earlier stated to contact the guy on this board who wishes he never went back to his J after a turbo - you two may indeed have a swap already preset.

 

Last, have to self promote - come to the GED fly in on July 13th.  We've got 5 or 6 Mooney pilots from this board attending the lunch fly in at 11:00 - we'd love to look over your airplane and "sell" it or at least give you free advice in person.

 

Hope to see you there, and good luck with your future aviation decision.

 

-Seth

[Marauder]

I see you're located in in the Washington, DC area. Where are you based? Are you talking about the guys at Freeway? Webber? I understand your point - you don't use the K to it's capacity, do not have your IFR ticket, and rarely go high. You're not flying long distnaces, and burning more fuel than necessary during your hamburger runs. Then again, you have a great plane, one you can grow in, that you know and hopefully doesn't give you too much trouble. The suggestion earlier stated to contact the guy on this board who wishes he never went back to his J after a turbo - you two may indeed have a swap already preset. Last, have to self promote - come to the GED fly in on July 13th. We've got 5 or 6 Mooney pilots from this board attending the lunch fly in at 11:00 - we'd love to look over your airplane and "sell" it or at least give you free advice in person. Hope to see you there, and good luck with your future aviation decision. -Seth

Well Seth, Doug did come to our last fly-in at N57! He and his 231 were in the video I posted under the N57 EAA Pancake Fly-in.

[RobertE]

If you decide to proceed with the swap I sure would consider doing it through All American in San Antonio.  This is the sort of thing they do all the time.  They know what they're doing and have a great reputation to defend.  So, yes, even they can be surprised with a hidden condition (like a cam that is about to wear due to disuse) but, in my expeirience, they'll put you in an aircraft that is less likely to have those "first annual" surprises.  As Mooney specialists, they'll give you top trade in value.  I did a swap with them 18 months ago and had an excellent experience.  Now I wouldn't consider anyplace else.

[fantom]

I agree with Scott, your broker and your shop. Unless there is more to your story the 231 should be fine.

At 50 hours a year you've got a lot of time before TBO, oxygen doesn't get stale, fuel burn and maintenance delta is minimal, you know the bird, and you have more capability than a 201, which I love.

Take the two weeks off and get your instrument ticket.

Otherwise keep feelers out and someone with a 201 will pop up soon to trade with you, or utilize the excellent services of All-American.

Good luck.

[Piloto]

 "It is a long story but basically I was able to work a deal where it made more sense to trade in the C for the K rather than sell the C outright."

 

To me it is more shocking to find someone downgrading from a K to a C. Each model has its applications and benefits. That is why there still the turbos and non-turbo models on every line (Pipers, Cessnas, Cirrus, Beech). I opted for the J because most of my flights  are over water or low terrain and trying to get oxygen abroad is not as easy as in the US. Just by numbers a 4 cylinder engine is more reliable and cheaper to maintain than a 6 cylinder turbo. Over the Atlantic I do not need two extra cylinders and a turbo to worry about.  Also with non-turbo you have more leaning flexibility without worrying about TIT. An important factor when 300nm from shore with a sudden headwind. But granted that if you occasionally need to cross the Sierra Nevada mountains a turbo is the way to go. Even though I have done it on my M20J at 18,000 feet but a dragging climb. Like others said you know your K very well and there may be no benefit but headaches in getting another plane.

 

José

[dfurst]

Jose, it was a three way deal.  The K seller did not end up with the C model.  My mistake was jumping from a C to a K.

[jetdriven]

The points in your argument makes sense however there is a hell of a cost in dealing with the "new to you" items that need to be fixed after acquiring your new plane.

If you plane is a known and your buying a unknown, plan 5-10k at least. What if the J you buy sat for 6 months and the cam goes out....there is 10k....

Just thoughts

If you simply split the engine and swap the cam and lifters, nothing else, its ten grand. A cheap overhaul and minimal replacement of worn items is more like 25K minimum. A factory OH and all new hoses, etc is going to run 37-38K with labor, the engine alone is 29K plus freight. You know the devil you got, you may not like the devil you're gonna get.

[aaronk25]

You know the devil you got, you may not like the devil you're gonna get.

You hit the nail on the head......exactly what I was trying to convey! Man I think realistically no matter how careful you are, there is a gamble of at least 20k-30k or more no matter how meticulous the Prebuy.

If the switch is worth it, go for it. If its just some extra gas and a bit of turbo and waste gate maintenance, would be hard to justify for me.

[DonMuncy]

I too, have a 231, and do not fly it very high very often. If I was starting over, I  would seriously consider a J  rather than a K. But for the relatively small fuel difference and maintenance, I would keep "the devil I know". And for those rare instances when needed, that turbo and O2 are really nice.  

[aaronk25]

So talking out the other side of my mouth I've been waiting for the right deal for a "k" driver to trade me for my nice J. If your serious PM me and lets swap some pics and details.

[RJBrown]

There's someone on this board in Colorado with a J who really misses his turbo. Maybe you and him could arrange a deal? Somebody "Brown" maybe? It may be worth your time to do some digging through the Member list.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I would entertain a swap for a  231 or maybe Rocket???

[fantom]

I'm lovin it....the OP is gonna have a bunch of us bidding up his K

[Marauder]

Doug -- if this deal goes down, I want a commission on it! Doug's Mooney is the one that did the nice landing at the beginning of this video:

[Parker_Woodruff]

I'm lovin it....the OP is gonna have a bunch of us bidding up his K

 

Good luck with that. I keep getting bid *down*.

[fantom]

Good luck with that. I keep getting bid *down*.

 

It's a weird market out there, Parker, and as you know most Mooney people are, shall we say, thrifty.

 

Be patient...someone will fall in love with your plane.