Holding procedure for IFR currency

[NotarPilot]

Does the holding procedure need to be with foggles or in IMC to count towards IFR currency or can it be in VMC? I thought it needed to be in IMC or simulated but in a short passing conversation last week with a CFII he said it could be in VMC without foggles or a hood on. Huh?

[danb35]

All IFR currency experience needs to be under actual or simulated instrument conditions.

[Hank]

All IFR currency experience needs to be under actual or simulated instrument conditions.

That's my understanding, too.

[midlifeflyer]

Does the holding procedure need to be with foggles or in IMC to count towards IFR currency or can it be in VMC? I thought it needed to be in IMC or simulated but in a short passing conversation last week with a CFII he said it could be in VMC without foggles or a hood on. Huh?

CFI needs some serious re-training. Or at least the ability to read:

 

==============================

61.57© Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person may act as pilot in command under IFR or weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR only if:

(1) Use of an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship for maintaining instrument experience. Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship, as appropriate, for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained in actual weather conditions, or under simulated conditions using a view-limiting device that involves having performed the following--

================================

 

Wonder what else he's mis-teaching.

[NotarPilot]

That's what I thought too. Just wondering if I was off base or something. I guess some CFIs are a lot like my high school teachers and teach based on opinion versus fact.

[midlifeflyer]

I have heard various interpretations of the bolded underlined section of 61.57-c-1.

 

“Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship, as appropriate, for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained in actual weather conditions, or under simulated conditions using a view-limiting device that involves having performed the following

(i) Six instrument approaches.”

 

Hypothetical 1

You are on an IFR flight plan by yourself with a 1200 foot overcast with tops at 3500 and you’re level at 3000 in IMC during the downwind and base legs until you break out into VMC at 1200 feet on final.

 

Hypothetical 2

You are on an IFR flight plan by yourself with tops at 2000 and bases at 1200 and you you climb through the layer and are on top until the descent and only in IMC between 2000 and 1200 feet.

 

Hypothetical 3

The field is IFR with an 800 foot overcast with tops at 2000 and you climb through the layer and are on top until the descent.

 

Which of the hypotheticals, if any, count as an approach for currency requirements?

 

You might enjoy reading my FAQ on this one. How Much Actual Is Required to Log an Instrument Approach?

[midlifeflyer]

That's what I thought too. Just wondering if I was off base or something. I guess some CFIs are a lot like my high school teachers and teach based on opinion versus fact.

 

Exactly. It's unfortunately common although thankfully not really the majority.

[Stefanovm]

You might enjoy reading my FAQ on this one. How Much Actual Is Required to Log an Instrument Approach?

This discussion is why I only count my simulated under hood to minimums, or actual from cruise IMC to minimums as the required aproaches for currency. At least once a year I try to do the whole six, holding, and enroute, with the safety pilot being a CFII. I also insist on at least one being a full missed approach never seeing out. Tough for me to stay current with my minmums.

[NotarPilot]

Anyone know what the definition of "and tasks" mean?

as in...

"(ii) Holding procedures and tasks."

[Mooneymite]

An interesting aside is "what is considered holding?".

On many of my part 121 and part 135 sim checks, "holding" consisted of the initial turn to enter the hold. In most cases, I've rarely completed more than 90 degrees of the initial turn before being vectored elsewhere, but was credited with "holding".

Some of these events were monitored by the FAA. I don't know if that makes it official, or not, but I certainly didn't complain.

[RJBrown]

This is why I do the IPC regularly. When the CFI is ready to sign you off as proficient he does. For this you don't need to count procedures or log holding or worry about what radial interceptions count. We usually start with a auto pilot coupled ILS and end with a hand flown NDB. Best reason to keep the ADF in the panel is for training. A hand flown NDB approach in a bit of wind gets all the bugs out of the system in a hurry.

To simply be legal I could fly 6 coupled approaches without ever touching the yoke. Knob spinning and bottom pushing could be legal but not proficient.

[1964-M20E]

I have heard various interpretations of the bolded underlined section of 61.57-c-1.

 

“Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship, as appropriate, for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained in actual weather conditions, or under simulated conditions using a view-limiting device that involves having performed the following

(i) Six instrument approaches.”

 

Hypothetical 1

You are on an IFR flight plan by yourself with a 1200 foot overcast with tops at 3500 and you’re level at 3000 in IMC during the downwind and base legs until you break out into VMC at 1200 feet on final.

 

Hypothetical 2

You are on an IFR flight plan by yourself with tops at 2000 and bases at 1200 and you you climb through the layer and are on top until the descent and only in IMC between 2000 and 1200 feet.

 

Hypothetical 3

The field is IFR with an 800 foot overcast with tops at 2000 and you climb through the layer and are on top until the descent.

 

Which of the hypotheticals, if any, count as an approach for currency requirements?

 

I’d log all three as instrument approaches.  According to the FAA link provided by midlife the FAA does not even agree on what is considered an approach.  At the end of the day you are the best judge as to your currency and your proficiency.   Do not worry about getting the right check marks in the right boxes be use you own  judge as to whether you are current or not use the FAA rules as minimum guide lines.  If you have the twinge in your gut saying this does not seem right listen to it and go practice.

[DXB]

Reopening thread with a dumb question- how many holds do I need in six months ?  I had assumed 6, but the instructor who just signed off my IPC says just one.  In which case I really didn’t need the IPC - I would have been current another 5 months!

[gsxrpilot]

6 approaches and 1 hold.... and if you do an approach with a procedure turn, just ask for one extra lap around the turn... hold, done.

[larryb]

And of this summer you can do your currency in a simulator with no instructor present.

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, larryb said:

And of this summer you can do your currency in a simulator with no instructor present.
 

Ugh... that sounds worse than going up with a CFI for an IPC.

And isn't it only good for three months or something like that? It's not exactly the same as doing it in the airplane.

[BradB]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

And isn't it only good for three months or something like that? It's not exactly the same as doing it in the airplane.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2018/june/27/faa-cuts-cost-of-training-proficiency

 

I think that changed this summer/fall.   I have a nice sim.  I need rot read up on the new rules, too. Fortunately, I have plenty of actual approaches with the weather around the Great Lakes.

 

Brad

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

Interesting... if it's truly the same as actual flight time... that's significant.

 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

6 approaches and 1 hold.... and if you do an approach with a procedure turn, just ask for one extra lap around the turn... hold, done.

Does a hold-in-lieu-of-procedure turn count as a hold, or do you actually need that extra loop?

[larryb]

You can also read about it here:

https://bruceair.wordpress.com/2018/06/26/new-ifr-currency-rules/

I personally find this very helpful. The sim I have access to is harder to hand-fly than my Mooney. Once second of inattention and you are in an unusual attitude. I get plenty of practice with my equipment even on vfr flights, loading approaches, flying coupled approaches with the autopilot, etc. I also get more IFR departures than I get approaches. And I get actual IFR approaches but that don't qualify because I break out too soon. The simulator can add the approaches I need for currency without having to find that perfect mid-IFR practice weather or a safety pilot.

[jaylw314]

39 minutes ago, larryb said:

You can also read about it here:

https://bruceair.wordpress.com/2018/06/26/new-ifr-currency-rules/

I personally find this very helpful. The sim I have access to is harder to hand-fly than my Mooney. Once second of inattention and you are in an unusual attitude. I get plenty of practice with my equipment even on vfr flights, loading approaches, flying coupled approaches with the autopilot, etc. I also get more IFR departures than I get approaches. And I get actual IFR approaches but that don't qualify because I break out too soon. The simulator can add the approaches I need for currency without having to find that perfect mid-IFR practice weather or a safety pilot.

I noticed the other subtle change is that training in a simulator with an instructor will count as "pilot time" as of Nov 26.  Presumably, practicing approaches by yourself will not count as "pilot time."  That means going back and making some minor but annoying changes in the ol' logbook...

[ArtVandelay]

I assume that Redbird (Windows Simulator) types don’t count, they have to be motion kind of sims?

[Jerry 5TJ]

“View limiting device...” how about if I lower the seat and just don’t look outside before the DA?  The panel in the Ovation is fairly tall & limits the view pretty well. 

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, teejayevans said:

I assume that Redbird (Windows Simulator) types don’t count, they have to be motion kind of sims?

Redbirds, if they're actual fully-equipped Redbirds rather than something cobbled together from newegg, count if it is an ATD.   So no motion required.

So you probably can't just fire up your home simulator and get current, regardless of how well equipped it might be, unless it is an approved ATD.

What makes an approved ATD?   The FAA position seems to be that they know one when they see one and they approve case-by-case.   It is apparently subjective.   So the new rules really benefit schools that already have "approved" ATDs or people with enough extra cash (and space) to spend the 5-10 AMUs to get a personal "approved" ATD from one of the few vendors that have been blessed by the FAA (e.g., Redbird).

Maybe someday the FAA will clarify what attributes are needed for a system to qualify as an ATD.   This would allow somebody to put together an equipment list or something so people could turn their existing home simulator into an ATD, which would be genuinely useful.   Without that, you have to go rent time on a Redbird and probably pay somebody to show you how to set it up, which will have its own learning curve and practical proficiency requirement.   This assumes that the rental facility is okay with customers accessing the setup menus, which might not be a great idea.

So as good of a step as this might seem, I'm not holding my breath on the execution being all that useful.   You'll still likely have to rent time on a Redbird (or other "approved" ATD), and likely also have to pay for somebody to sit there and set it up for you.   I get the most bang for the buck out of the sims if somebody is there to reset it to a new approach once you've completed one.

I keep hoping that some local school figures this out and makes a "currency package" where they set up the programming for the six approaches, track, intercept, and hold, and get you in and out of the sim in a decent amount of time and charge appropriately.   I've been thinking of just renting a storefront somewhere and setting up a sim or two JUST for currency sessions, but I'm not sure I want to deal with the FAA deciding on-the-fly what requirements might or might not apply to such a facility.

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by EricJ

[gsxrpilot]

The only thing I hate worse than flying a simulator, (not talking about the multi-million dollar full motion sims the airlines use)... hmmm can't think of anything.

I'm a properly rated pilot and I own an airplane. I refuse to fly a desk.