Ramp Checks

[rockydoc]

So I guess the answer to my questions is that no one has asked politely and without any attitude that their rights be respected by postponing the ramp inspection and not allowing them to enter your airplane.  i find that VERY interesting.  We're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but only guilty people refuse to take a lie detector test for speak with the police without an attorney present.  After all, why do we need our rights protected.  Big brother is our friend.  Yeah, and I've got some land in S. Florida I'll sell you.  Americans are giving their rights away.  Soon, we won't have any rights.  Sorry for the rave.

[1964-M20E]

Wel I've never been checked so I do not have anything to go on myslef.

[chrisk]

I've never been ramp checked.  I have however heard stories of some older pilots who have had things like gear up landings, and no medical.  I always wondered how much trouble they could get into.   Not that someone in their 90s may actually care.

[carusoam]

I would think delaying the ramp check because you are busy, will lead to a much more detailed ramp check at a less convenient , but scheduled time.

It is my priority to be prepared to show proper docs and minimize my inconvenience.

Good luck with protecting your rights rockydoc with your proposed method. It's better to pick your battles. This probably isn't the one I would go with...

Best regards,

-a-

[rockydoc]

I would think delaying the ramp check because you are busy, will lead to a much more detailed ramp check at a less convenient , but scheduled time.

It is my priority to be prepared to show proper docs and minimize my inconvenience.

Good luck with protecting your rights rockydoc with your proposed method. It's better to pick your battles. This probably isn't the one I would go with...

Best regards,

-a-

Yes, I agree totally.  I am very careful NOT to alienate those that have authority over me and conform to society's demands for conformity.  But, that being said and also it being said that I AM NOT a conspiracy theorist, I know that history repeats itself.  i remember how Hitler got elected and what followed.  i see this same trend having developed in our great US of A.  It saddens me deeply.  i think if people insisted on standing up for their US Constitutionally guaranteed rights that the authorities would have to change the way they deal with us.  But, with everyone being so eager to give up their rights because they are "innocent" and "law abiding" it is dooming our way of life.

[jetdriven]

So I guess the answer to my questions is that no one has asked politely and without any attitude that their rights be respected by postponing the ramp inspection and not allowing them to enter your airplane.  i find that VERY interesting.  We're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but only guilty people refuse to take a lie detector test for speak with the police without an attorney present.  After all, why do we need our rights protected.  Big brother is our friend.  Yeah, and I've got some land in S. Florida I'll sell you.  Americans are giving their rights away.  Soon, we won't have any rights.  Sorry for the rave.

Ramp checks fall under administrative law. The burden of proof on the FAA to show a violation is only a "preponderance of the evidence" rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt".  That's the system, it sucks, but its what you consent to when the FAA grants you the privilege to exercise your authority as a pilot. 

 

I saw your posts about Hitler, and the decline of rights and the eventual decay of America, Constitutional freedoms, etc.  

 

 

Just how have your rights as a pilot at a ramp check changed in the past 50 years?  Besides the new pilots bill of rights, of course.

[rockydoc]

Ramp checks fall under administrative law. The burden of proof on the FAA to show a violation is only a "preponderance of the evidence" rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt".  That's the system, it sucks, but its what you consent to when the FAA grants you the privilege to exercise your authority as a pilot. 

 

I saw your posts about Hitler, and the decline of rights and the eventual decay of America, Constitutional freedoms, etc.  

 

 

Just how have your rights as a pilot at a ramp check changed in the past 50 years?  Besides the new pilots bill of rights, of course.

While the regs and laws regarding ramp checks may not have changed, the fear and intimidation that we are afraid of if we ask that our rights be respected HAS changed.  I am a J.D. and M.D.  I carry federal narcotics license, pilots license, driver's license and various medical licenses.  Meaning, i am a law abiding citizen.  But, as i said, history repeats itself.  Just look around you.  If you DARE to ask a ramp inspector to put off the ramp check or to not go into your airplane, you are afraid it will result in a tougher inspection--that's simply not the American way.  We used to value our rights.  i.e. innocent until proven quilty.  Well, try that if you're stopped for a traffic stop and have a wad of cash laying on your front seat.  The courts now use the warrant to "Appear and Show Cause" why the money isn't ilicit.  I suppose you think that is "innocent until proven guilty" eh?  Our fore fathers came to this country because they didn't believe in debtor's prison.  But, if a judge orders you to pay and you don't pay, he'll issue you a "Contempt of Court"  warrant and imprison you until you pay--or a family member pays for you.  I suppose you think that isn't debtor's prison.  And, while I'm raving.  Let's look at a similarity between Russia, Cuba and the USA.  I don't know of anyone who is aware that it is a violation of Federal Statute for a US citizen to leave the USA without permission first from the US government (in the form of it being mandatory that you have a US Passport TO LEAVE the USA.  I guess you think that is OK.  Personally, I don't.  Like i said, I have never had a run in with the government, but that doesn't keep me from being sad that as American's we are voluntarily giving up our rights.  Democratic Germany elected Hitler to office because the people were afraid of the lawlessness and crime that was rampaging the country.  He promised them a solution.  And, we all know what his solution was.  Wow!  That was some rave, eh?  Sorry about that.  Thanks for giving me the freedom to express these feelings in this forum.

[jetdriven]

So then you are ranting about traffic stops, appear to show cause orders, and being thrown in jail for owing money. And Hitler.

Anything except ramp check rights (which haven't changed since 1958), pilots bill of rights, and administrative law. Got it.

Next?

[PTK]

When you cross the border exiting the US presumably you're doing so because you're travelling to another country. The purpose of the passport is to be able to show to that country that you are a legal citizen of your country of origin. The US in this case. Also with your passport you're asking that other country's permission to enter their borders and become part of their society and culture even temporarily. This is why the passport contains your name, photograph, dob, signature, your country of origin and has an expiration date. It lets the authorities of the country you're visiting know that you're a legal citizen of the country issuing your passport. Also it enables you to reenter the US upon your return.

What rights are you giving up by having a passport? Personally I'm proud to have been extended the privilege enabling me to carry and display my US Passport wherever I travel!

You want to abolish passports! Really!

Wasn't this thread about ramp checks? Talk about a theme departure!

To have a passport is a privilege granted by our State Dept. and comes with conditions. A pilot license is also a privilege granted by the FAA on a conditional basis. Just as your driver's license is a privilege granted to you by your State on conditions. The word privilege (from the Latin, privilegium) means private law. Law or rules that apply to some special group of individuals after birth. These privileges carry conditions and are not irrevocable rights granted to all from the moment of birth.

[rockydoc]

I didn't know that you have to have a US passport in order to leave this country.  I just thought that you had better have one if you want to get back in, which you probably agree seems more than reasonable.  Can you cite that statute, Doc?  I'm a lawyer, too, but certainly not in the field of immigration law. 

 

EDIT:  Not trying to be difficult at all.  Just trying to learn. 

 

Thanks,

 

Jim

Happy to oblige you Jim.  I have an email from Homeland Security discussing this very thing that i will be happy to email you if you send me your private email address so I can attach it as an attachment.  As you can see by some comments of others, no one believes you have to have a US Passport to LEAVE the USA.  Here is the cite:

"CFR 53.1 Passport requirement. definitions.  (a) It is unlawful for a citizen of the united States, unless excepted under 22CFR 53.2 to enter or depart, or attempt to enter or depart, the United States, without a valid U.s. passport."  Hope that helps.  This just confirms my point that as loyal citizen pilots, we too readily relinguish our right to tell a ramp inspector to come back later because we are afraid of him causing problems for us.  In my mind, that is not the way it should be.  If I had my druthers, every single pilot that was approached for a ramp check would exercise his right to have them come back at a time convenient for him--not because all of his credentials aren't in order, but for the same reason that you should ALWAYS have an attorney present when you are being questioned by the police.  thanks for asking the question Jim.  I'm not a b.s. er.  But, like you, because of my professions I know things the average Joe doesn't know.

[rockydoc]

Happy to oblige you Jim.  I have an email from Homeland Security discussing this very thing that i will be happy to email you if you send me your private email address so I can attach it as an attachment.  As you can see by some comments of others, no one believes you have to have a US Passport to LEAVE the USA.  Here is the cite:

"CFR 53.1 Passport requirement. definitions.  (a) It is unlawful for a citizen of the united States, unless excepted under 22CFR 53.2 to enter or depart, or attempt to enter or depart, the United States, without a valid U.s. passport."  Hope that helps.  This just confirms my point that as loyal citizen pilots, we too readily relinguish our right to tell a ramp inspector to come back later because we are afraid of him causing problems for us.  In my mind, that is not the way it should be.  If I had my druthers, every single pilot that was approached for a ramp check would exercise his right to have them come back at a time convenient for him--not because all of his credentials aren't in order, but for the same reason that you should ALWAYS have an attorney present when you are being questioned by the police.  thanks for asking the question Jim.  I'm not a b.s. er.  But, like you, because of my professions I know things the average Joe doesn't know.

Jim, on a related note.  I have correspondence from Homeland Security that unequivically states that any U.S. citizen that presents themselves to a port of entry at a U.S. Border and can prove that they are a U.S. citizen will NEVER be denied entry--even if they don't have a passport.  It further states that they may be delayed while immigration satisfies themselves that they are a US citizen, but they "would never be denied entry."  So, there you have it, eh?

[rockydoc]

When you cross the border exiting the US presumably you're doing so because you're travelling to another country. The purpose of the passport is to be able to show to that country that you are a legal citizen of your country of origin. The US in this case. Also with your passport you're asking that other country's permission to enter their borders and become part of their society and culture even temporarily. This is why the passport contains your name, dob, signature, your country of origin and has an expiration date. It lets the authorities of the country you're visiting know that you're a legal citizen of the country issuing your passport. Also it enables you to reenter the US upon your return.

What rights are you giving up by having a passport. Personally I'm proud to carry and display my US Passport wherever I travel! 

You want to abolish passports! Really! 

 

Wasn't this thread about ramp checks? Talk about a theme departure!

Sorry you don't see the relationship.  I certainly don't mean to offend you or anyone else on this forum.  Accurate information is my only goal.  Cheers.

[Bennett]

Some years ago I returned to the US from France without my passport. I had left it a a bank inadvertently on a Friday, and I was traveling on Saturday. I called the US consulate in Marseilles, and they faxed me a "travel paper" to my hotel. Hardly looked authentic, but the airline folks, including French security accepted it, and when I arrived back in the US, customs just looked at it, and waived me through. I must look the opposite of a terrorist, even though I have a beard

[carusoam]

So my choices are...

(1) Get educated in the law...

-or-

(2) Bring a couple of documents, as I have been educated already from my PP days...

-or-

(3) Trust the guy I just met on on MooneySpace...

BS or not Rock, I'm best sticking with what my education affords me...

There is a thread here, called something like "introduce yourself". You might like to cut and paste your interesting background there as well.

Best regards,

-a-

[PTK]

Sorry you don't see the relationship.

No I don't.

I diametrically disagree with your view.

[rockydoc]

So, I guess I am the only guy on this forum that finds it interesting that apparently NOT ONE person here has exercised their right to opolitely tell a ramp inspector to come back at a more convenient time and/or politely tell him that you do not want him to go inside of your airplane.  However, from the PM's I have received from some of you, you have privately agreed with my point of view!  Interesting, eh?  VERY interesting.

[carusoam]

How often do you get ramp checked Rocky?

I haven't had one opportunity since my first flight in the '90s...

I've spent more time reading about it than I have actual experience.

Just does not seem worth the effort for me to get educated in the law for the level of freedom I would enjoy.

Good luck converting people with my level of experience to your level of education over this particular method of supporting your freedom.

I like your idea. I just can't seem to make sense out of it for the non-lawyer pilot.

Best regards,

-a-

[Dave Marten]

Ramped once in the Mooney. 2011 in TX. Was a total NON-EVENT. Inspector met me at the airplane post-flight, introductions, quick check of paperwork, and I was on my way in less then 10 minutes (including some friendly hangar flying). Very professional.

 

Too many pilots are far too paranoid!

[chrisk]

For those that don't understand the loss of rights, you should check out the just released AOPA video.   And remember, don't complain when home land security decides to pull your plane apart on the ramp.  You might spend the night in jail too.

 

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2013/130516pilot-detained-searched-for-mysterious-reasons.html?WT.mc_id=130517epilot&WT.mc_sect=gan

[BigTex]

So... I live in Texas and if you have a Concelled Handgun License and happen to have a firearm on you when you're ramp checked, what's required?  For traffic stops you have to provide the police officer with your permit and inform them you have a firearm.  What's the rules for Ramp Checks?

[rockydoc]

So... I live in Texas and if you have a Concelled Handgun License and happen to have a firearm on you when you're ramp checked, what's required?  For traffic stops you have to provide the police officer with your permit and inform them you have a firearm.  What's the rules for Ramp Checks?

Good question.  My Dad died and left me his WWII service pistol.  I have been planning on flying to FLA to pick it up and bring it back.  I never thought about your question.  Maybe someone can answer it authoritatively for us.  i.e. one of our Mooney law enforcement officers.  Any volunteers officers?

[chrisk]

So... I live in Texas and if you have a Concelled Handgun License and happen to have a firearm on you when you're ramp checked, what's required?  For traffic stops you have to provide the police officer with your permit and inform them you have a firearm.  What's the rules for Ramp Checks?

 

 

For Texas

GC §411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE.

(a) If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display both the license holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the department and the license holder's handgun license.

 

So if you are asked for ID, you might ask if they are a licenced peace officer in the state of Texas. 

[yvesg]

For those that don't understand the loss of rights, you should check out the just released AOPA video.   And remember, don't complain when home land security decides to pull your plane apart on the ramp.  You might spend the night in jail too.

 

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2013/130516pilot-detained-searched-for-mysterious-reasons.html?WT.mc_id=130517epilot&WT.mc_sect=gan

Not meaning to hijack the thread however it crossed my mind while planning trips to Mexico that we pilots are highly vulnerable to drug trafficking with or without our knowledge/consent

Assume you land at some Mexican field and park your plane for a few days. It would be very easy for someone to hide illicit payload somewhere (a good place would be where the retractable step gismos and elt are... just a dozen quarter turn screws and there you go.)

With Internet, they can easily find where the aircraft is based at. If the aircraft makes it back without any border issue, their contact can retrieve their stuff at night the same way.

I came up with some ideas to "mark" the fasteners allowing knowledge if someone put a screwdriver in. Should always visually inspect each of those marks before flying back.

Now, lets say you do as I suggest above, realize someone tampered with some access panel and then find the package... do you:

a) Throw it in the garbage and fly back?

Contact the local authorities to let them know you found this?

Yves

[Bennett]

When I used to fly to Grand Turk in the British West Indies I was always concerned that someone might put some sort of small package of drugs into the airplane, with the idea of recovering it later in the US. At the time there was a good deal of drug activity in Grand Turk - twins landing at night, taxing to the far end of the field, refueling from a truck at midnight, etc. I

also knew that the DEA was actively placing their own trackers (a form of transponder) into aircraft, without the owner's knowledge or permission. Since I was spending a good deal of time in

Grand Turk, and all of the British West Indies, on a Columbus Landfall project, I was sure I was exposed to this practice. So I made a habit of lining up all the screwheads in the inspection

panels in the tail section of the aircraft. Sure enough, one time when I came out to preflight the airplane prior to departing for Florida I noticed that the screw heads were no longer

aligned in the rectangular (rounded corners) inspection panel just under the horizontal stabilizer of the left side of the aircraft. I opened the panel and found a relatively small black box with antenna wired into the tail navigation light circuit. This was done by striping back some of the wiring plastic coating and used clamp on fittings. This could have been dangerous, had

the wires shorted and taken out at least part of the electrical system, and who knew how much current the back box would draw. In any event, I was angry about this idea, and I removed the

clamped on flittings, taped up the now bare wires, and threw the box on the tarmac, and literally stomped on it. I then flew back to the US without any problems or repercussions. On my next

flight to Grand turk another black box was spliced in a different place on the tail lighting circuit, using a different inspection plate. Pulled it out, stomped on it as before. On the next

trip I wandered around the two bars on Grand Turk, walked up to a tall american looking gentleman with a crew cut, and asked him plain out "Are you with the DEA?". He looked at me for a

minute, and said "Yes". He recognized me as the Mooney pilot. We had a very frank conversation about the black boxes, why I was in Grand Turk, and after buying him a couple of drinks we came to an understanding. He would not install the trackers, and I would not stomp on them. Earl,his name, turned out to be a pretty good guy, and I learned a bit about how many aircraft were

used in drug smuggling. This habit of aligning screw heads (even Philips heads)remains with me on my Mexico flights - not as many as in the past. Only takes a few minutes to align the heads on the most accessible inspection plates. Not paranoid - just wary.

[chrisk]

Not meaning to hijack the thread however it crossed my mind while planning trips to Mexico that we pilots are highly vulnerable to drug trafficking with or without our knowledge/consent

Assume you land at some Mexican field and park your plane for a few days. It would be very easy for someone to hide illicit payload somewhere (a good place would be where the retractable step gismos and elt are... just a dozen quarter turn screws and there you go.)

With Internet, they can easily find where the aircraft is based at. If the aircraft makes it back without any border issue, their contact can retrieve their stuff at night the same way.

I came up with some ideas to "mark" the fasteners allowing knowledge if someone put a screwdriver in. Should always visually inspect each of those marks before flying back.

Now, lets say you do as I suggest above, realize someone tampered with some access panel and then find the package... do you:

a) Throw it in the garbage and fly back?

Contact the local authorities to let them know you found this?

Yves

This has happened before with cars.  http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/man_convicted_in_tex-mex_pot_smuggling_scheme_that_ensnared_innocent_driver/

 

and

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/world/americas/mexico-blind-drug-mules

 

 

 

Throw it on the ground and go like there is no tomorrow!  There is more than one person in a Mexican jail after calling the police for similar incidents.