The cheapening of the AOPA

[Awful_Charlie]

Guys (and Gals) - please stick with AOPA, if you need convincing, look at the state of GA in Europe :-(  Over here, AOPA membership is a small %age of the pilot population, membership fees have to be double what you suffer, and with the resulting shortage of resources, look where we are now

 

The way I view it is that unless you are personally going to read all the aviation proposals, write to your representatives with every comment and appeal, then you owe it to someone to do this for you - just as AOPA does.  If they determine that to raise some funds they can make money but putting junk in your mailbox, so be it - I get loads in my mailbox too from all sorts of places, but it makes for a few good fires in the winter. I get hassled on the phone by insurance companies almost daily trying to sell me their latest and greatest, but that doesn't mean I'm going to abandon all insurance.

 

You've got a great aviation environment and set-up in the US, don't lose it!

[John Pleisse]

I made snyde comments about AOPA earlier in the thread. I didn't think the discussion would blow-up. They do a great job and they are all we have. But the credit card offers and various revenue streams, IMHO, are the sign of association managament run amuck. They are intentionally dividing their content and base to directly compete with NBAA. Is this what we pay for? Quarter mil to $675k salaries for the top people is a bit high. Good talent in GA could come a little lower. Yodice's office does very well too, as they should, but is there fair comepetition for legal services?  I just wish they (AOPA as a whole) would do only what they set out to do and not much else. I hope this was more constructive.

[aviatoreb]

I support AOPA because they are best placed lobby group to look out for us in congress.  I do also like the magazine and so forth, so it is not such a bad deal.

 

I do wish I could opt out of most of the mailings.  It is more than annoying.

 

I have a major worry when they start hanging their name on products like flyq efb which is for pay software which then competes directly with actual GA companies like foreflight, hilton head, bendix mywingman, and even garmin's new product.  I do not think that is what a nonprofit is supposed to do - they are using their guise as a nonprofit to then push their for profit software backing some company that then supposedly gives them a kickback - okay to boost the nonprofit activities that I support like safety notices and lobby activities but still...I do not support this way of doing it.  I would rather they raise my rates to $50.

[Alan Fox]

I support AOPA because they are best placed lobby group to look out for us in congress.  I do also like the magazine and so forth, so it is not such a bad deal.

 

I do wish I could opt out of most of the mailings.  It is more than annoying.

 

I have a major worry when they start hanging their name on products like flyq efb which is for pay software which then competes directly with actual GA companies like foreflight, hilton head, bendix mywingman, and even garmin's new product.  I do not think that is what a nonprofit is supposed to do - they are using their guise as a nonprofit to then push their for profit software backing some company that then supposedly gives them a kickback - okay to boost the nonprofit activities that I support like safety notices and lobby activities but still...I do not support this way of doing it.  I would rather they raise my rates to $50.

Non profit does not mean non revenue , Its still a buisness and has to make money.....

[quik flite]

I do not see much value  in the membership anymore, I think of all the talk about medicals ,saving airports ,avgas,airplane prices, and training and getting new pilots in the ranks, pretty dismal failures. I keep paying yearly membership only to hope something changes.I think its gotten to big and off course..

[M016576]

I support AOPA because they are best placed lobby group to look out for us in congress. I do also like the magazine and so forth, so it is not such a bad deal.

I do wish I could opt out of most of the mailings. It is more than annoying.

I have a major worry when they start hanging their name on products like flyq efb which is for pay software which then competes directly with actual GA companies like foreflight, hilton head, bendix mywingman, and even garmin's new product. I do not think that is what a nonprofit is supposed to do - they are using their guise as a nonprofit to then push their for profit software backing some company that then supposedly gives them a kickback - okay to boost the nonprofit activities that I support like safety notices and lobby activities but still...I do not support this way of doing it. I would rather they raise my rates to $50.

Only the iPad version costs extra- the iPhone version of FlyQ is free with membership.

Honestly, I think the only reason they do charge for the iPad version, is that if they didn't, then Foreflight and WingX would go out of business.... Who would bay 150.00 a year for one of those when they could get something identical for free...

Disclaimer- I love my "free" FlyQ for the iPhone, and now use it in place of my old Foreflight (the version that didn't require a yearly subscription). The weather, charts, airport info... It's the perfect supplement to my Aera 560 and G430W

[aviatoreb]

Only the iPad version costs extra- the iPhone version of FlyQ is free with membership.

Honestly, I think the only reason they do charge for the iPad version, is that if they didn't, then Foreflight and WingX would go out of business.... Who would bay 150.00 a year for one of those when they could get something identical for free...

Disclaimer- I love my "free" FlyQ for the iPhone, and now use it in place of my old Foreflight (the version that didn't require a yearly subscription). The weather, charts, airport info... It's the perfect supplement to my Aera 560 and G430W

 

flyq efb is quite different from flyq for iphone.  It looks and feels like mywingman - as if the same programmers made it.

 

Anyway, I get your point everyone.

[jetdriven]

Non profit does not mean non revenue , Its still a buisness and has to make money.....

Yes, they pay their directors lavish salaries and fly around in a jet. You get a magazine once a month detailing how a 3 million dollar TBM-850 is an excellent value.  Just what GA needs.

[flyboy0681]

Non profit does not mean non revenue

 

Non-profit only means that there are no shareholders and that profits are retained and not distributed outside of the entity. In my industry, healthcare, this means that non-profit hospitals have to find ways to use the money and that often results in bloated salaries and the purchase of bleeding edge technology which they don't need, such as the latest in imaging tools.

[Jamie]

I do not see much value  in the membership anymore, I think of all the talk about medicals ,saving airports ,avgas,airplane prices, and training and getting new pilots in the ranks, pretty dismal failures. I keep paying yearly membership only to hope something changes.I think its gotten to big and off course..

 

I'm not picking on quik flite, but the comment was a place to jump off from. I'm also not an AOPA cheerleader.

 

But damn. GA is under attack from -all sides-. There's a similiar thread to this one over at PoA, and an AOPA guy responds. It's amazing how much crap they defend us from we never hear about. It's not just the big things... it's the local threats to general aviation that we don't see unless we experience it personally.

 

I'm amazed we still have what we have. Pilots are such a minority. AOPA may not be getting us everything we want, but unless 10x more pilots (and members) suddenly appear, why should a politician give a crap? The only reason we're not a bigger target is there really isn't much money here. Yup, we earn more than average but there are so few of us we're just an annoyance.

 

And I'm glad AOPA has a jet. It's the corporate version of wearing a suit to a meeting. If that helps them gain influence then fine. They certainly don't have the numbers behind them that, say, the AARP has. If every pilot in a district voted a certain way, would you even notice?

 

Don't expect to "sub out" your interests to AOPA for $45 a year either. When was the last time you wrote / called your congress person about any aviation related issue? There's a saying about running a software project: "Leading programmers is like trying to herd cats.". Pilots are the same way.

 

Given our size, our intelligence and our relative wealth, we should be one of the biggest small kids on the block.

[Marauder]

Yes, they pay their directors lavish salaries and fly around in a jet. You get a magazine once a month detailing how a 3 million dollar TBM-850 is an excellent value.  Just what GA needs.

 

When you look at the compensation of their executives in comparison to their revenues, you need to ask who do they represent? I agree with Byron, I don't care to hear about multi-million dollar airplanes most of us will never own.

 

Read this: http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Inside_Look_At_AOPA_203782-1.html

 

BTW -- if the executives at my company were paid at an equivalent rate based on revenues, there would be riots.

[flyboy0681]

 I don't care to hear about multi-million dollar airplanes most of us will never own.

 

Correction: most all of us will never own.

[Jeff_S]

Correction: most all of us will never own.

 

I think it's fun to read about things like the TBM 850, even some of the corporate jets.  Yes, I may never own one...but I might!  Also, I learned awhile back that there are actually two versions of the AOPA Pilot magazine, one that does cater to the turbine pilots with specialized articles. Somehow I had gotten on that list, but I simply asked to be switched back to the regular list so now I don't see those articles.

[RJBrown]

AOPA is no where as jet oriented as Flying has gotten. But we cant turn our noses up at that segment any more than they should deride us.  AOPA is the only advocate group we have  support from across the board. There is a lot of good that they do. If you are a pilot and are interested in stemming the tide of government infringement AOPA is the only group that we have. We as GA, big and small, from flying lawn furniture to G650 are too small a group fight each other. NBAA is sometimes stupid in this area. Advancing a narrower agenda at the expense of our segment. Divide and conquer is what happens. Every pilot and every support group should look to protect flying at every level. There just simply are not enough of us to act selfishly.

 My NRA comment was clear. If you care about second amendment rights you support the NRA even if you don't agree with everything they do. They are the most effective group in the arena they operate in.

 Similarly if you care about what government calls a "privilege" to fly and not a "right" getting behind AOPA and ignoring the crap that bugs you is the best way to protect that privilege. 

 PS I like the turbine version. All the regular articles plus about 12 pages on turbine planes. Whats not to like?

[M016576]

Part of the issue of GA, IMHO is that when you start to get to the higher echelons of ownership (ie, where the vast fortunes lay), the guys writing the checks for their aircraft aren't actually flying them. To put it another way: professional pilots, and even enthusiasts typically can't afford the truly big iron. So it's a case of the "middle to lower class" left to defend itself.

How many TBM850 or PC-12 or Cessna X or GV owners have passion for their aircraft like we (single engine recip type GA pilots) do? Not many. Most of those guys don't or can't fly their own aircraft. To them, it's a transportation tool, not a passion. Now, to their professional pilot that they pay$30-45k a year, it's a passion. It has to be. It's frustrating that guys like Ian Twombly Jr get to go out and fly all the GA fleet, get paid a ridiculously high salary and all he has to do is write a crap article about how he flew his wife and kids to Martha's Vineyard again... But I bet it frustrates other guys that I get paid as much as I do to go fly supersonic after burning fighter jets every day.... Regardless, because aviation is such an expensive and limited community, we have a wide variety of economies to represent... And the ones at the top typically don't seem to concern themselves with the issues. AOPA at least helps. And they do provide some services for the money (iPhone app, flight planner, safety seminars / CBT's) And we can make a difference too! Look at the great work Mitch and Jolie do! Ultimately, though, I think every little bit of participation and representation we can get counts...

Ok, off my soap box...

[Alan Fox]

Again you are a bunch of whiners.......  who cares how much the AOPA guys get paid......Frankly its no one elses buisness , and furthermore who knows what else is involved in the day to day operations of thier jobs......let me think before I answer that one.......... wait ........ wait.........wait.......... Oh got it..... NONE OF US.........You are a bunch of jealous haters ..... Stop hating ........ I would take that job if I could........Good for them ........

[OR75]

Part of the issue of GA, IMHO is that when you start to get to the higher echelons of ownership (ie, where the vast fortunes lay), the guys writing the checks for their aircraft aren't actually flying them. To put it another way: professional pilots, and even enthusiasts typically can't afford the truly big iron. So it's a case of the "middle to lower class" left to defend itself.

How many TBM850 or PC-12 or Cessna X or GV owners have passion for their aircraft like we (single engine recip type GA pilots) do? Not many. Most of those guys don't or can't fly their own aircraft. To them, it's a transportation tool, not a passion. Now, to their professional pilot that they pay$30-45k a year, it's a passion. It has to be. It's frustrating that guys like Ian Twombly Jr get to go out and fly all the GA fleet, get paid a ridiculously high salary and all he has to do is write a crap article about how he flew his wife and kids to Martha's Vineyard again... But I bet it frustrates other guys that I get paid as much as I do to go fly supersonic after burning fighter jets every day.... Regardless, because aviation is such an expensive and limited community, we have a wide variety of economies to represent... And the ones at the top typically don't seem to concern themselves with the issues. AOPA at least helps. And they do provide some services for the money (iPhone app, flight planner, safety seminars / CBT's) And we can make a difference too! Look at the great work Mitch and Jolie do! Ultimately, though, I think every little bit of participation and representation we can get counts...

Ok, off my soap box...

 

 

very  true.

 

That's why - I understand the slippery slope concept - the $100 for those does not prevent me to sleep at night

[AmigOne]

"When you look at the compensation of their executives in comparison to their revenues, you need to ask who do they represent? I agree with Byron, I don't care to hear about multi-million dollar airplanes most of us will never own"

Did you check lately which is the average compensation of CEO's from companies vis a vis their companies revenues...? You'll be surprised how many collect millions for lousy performance, you might even own some of their stock. Perhaps we should have been more outraged when the retiring CEO of Exxon got a $600 million retirement package (plus perks of course) while the company still receives subsidies that all of us pay.

[flyboy0681]

 You'll be surprised how many collect millions for lousy performance, you might even own some of their stock.

 

The company's response would be, "If Mr. X wasn't the CEO, the performance would be even worse."

[fantom]

Interesting to consider how GA is serviced by AOPA vs. how Mooney owners are represented by MAPA. I believe basic membership cost is about the same.

 

You gets what you pays for

[Marauder]

Censored... Took one for Scott.

 

 

[laytonl]

AOPA will take you off their "junk email" list if you ask. May have to be persistent. I rarely receive any of their junk. Lee

[bd32322]

The salary of executives is not a moral issue or what you feel should be the salary. Its just supply and demand. There are few people with experience running big corporations or organizations successfully and if you dont pay them well, they will go somewhere else.

I as a minion in a company want to see my competent CEO, get paid lavishly for doing his job right - which is increasing our stock value and in turn generate wealth for me. I dont want him to get paid less because I will never make 100 mil a year.

And if he doesnt do his job right, he will get fired.

I dont have data specific to the AOPA situation however. I have just been paying the dues and getting good use of the web courses, insurance, and magazines (turbine section with extra pages - why would I want fewer pages?).

[Oscar Avalle]

Part of the issue of GA, IMHO is that when you start to get to the higher echelons of ownership (ie, where the vast fortunes lay), the guys writing the checks for their aircraft aren't actually flying them. To put it another way: professional pilots, and even enthusiasts typically can't afford the truly big iron. So it's a case of the "middle to lower class" left to defend itself.

How many TBM850 or PC-12 or Cessna X or GV owners have passion for their aircraft like we (single engine recip type GA pilots) do? Not many. Most of those guys don't or can't fly their own aircraft. To them, it's a transportation tool, not a passion. Now, to their professional pilot that they pay$30-45k a year, it's a passion. It has to be. It's frustrating that guys like Ian Twombly Jr get to go out and fly all the GA fleet, get paid a ridiculously high salary and all he has to do is write a crap article about how he flew his wife and kids to Martha's Vineyard again... But I bet it frustrates other guys that I get paid as much as I do to go fly supersonic after burning fighter jets every day.... Regardless, because aviation is such an expensive and limited community, we have a wide variety of economies to represent... And the ones at the top typically don't seem to concern themselves with the issues. AOPA at least helps. And they do provide some services for the money (iPhone app, flight planner, safety seminars / CBT's) And we can make a difference too! Look at the great work Mitch and Jolie do! Ultimately, though, I think every little bit of participation and representation we can get counts...

Ok, off my soap box...

 

 

Let me share your soap box, It is great to have AOPA, with all their annoying calls and emails (I get the calls being abroad on my US cell... I always answer and try to be polite thinking that there T-Mobile is charging roaming rates...). I have been a member since 1993. I think that they provide a service and some good advice. I also agree that they have become a little bit too turbine for my taste... but I guess that is where the market is going.

[scottfromiowa]

Do you mean "urban"?