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Who needs control towers?


aviatoreb

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...I do.

 

The official FAA position is, "While the cuts would inevitably reduce the number of operations -- take-offs and landings -- the FAA said it would maintain the highest level of safety."

 

Why am I not feeling so reassured?  I keep thinking someone is going to get hurt.

 

And everyone is going to get delayed by long waits in line at the TSA, and long waits in line to land at under staffed (but still staffed) major airports. A lot of people are going to be cranky.

 

Is this thing really going to happen?

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The new manufactured crisis of the day, fear mongering galore... This is just the way this administration works. The neverending "sky is falling" campign has not taken a break since this man set foot in the White House. Enjoy the next four years!

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The new manufactured crisis of the day, fear mongering galore... This is just the way this administration works. The neverending "sky is falling" campign has not taken a break since this man set foot in the White House. Enjoy the next four years!

 

Well - I didn't mean to open up the discussion of whose fault it may be - and I think there is PLENTY of fault to spread to both sides of the aisle.  Really I do.  All that aside....please....just keeping to aviation I think this time towers will close and people may indeed get hurt. Anyway, I am not laughing if its just a bad joke.

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The new manufactured crisis of the day, fear mongering galore... This is just the way this administration works. The neverending "sky is falling" campign has not taken a break since this man set foot in the White House. Enjoy the next four years!

+1

Remember the President has the choice of where to cut. Will he execute all the cuts he is scaring everyone with or cut the programs that are truly a waste? Guess we will see next week.

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Actually, most of these control towers have no reason to exist what so ever. We here at KCBF at any given moment have more airplanes in the pattern that for example, KTOP experiences all day long, or Grand Island, NE as another example. We do just fine.

 

As to the fear mongering since the man set a foot in the White House, it seems to come more from the other side than the man himself. He seems pretty damn cool, calm and composed and quite frankly, a bit more conservative than RR was. If I was flying thru a thunderstorm and needed a helper, I'd take Berry over John Bohner any day. I don't need any crying in the cockpit.

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+1

Remember the President has the choice of where to cut. Will he execute all the cuts he is scaring everyone with or cut the programs that are truly a waste? Guess we will see next week.

 

God, I hate US of A sometimes. The most obtuse, misinformed bunch on the face on this planet in a country where the actual bills are public knowledge and available for reading. It almost seems like the first amendment is a complete waste on the population. The bill is written specifically in such a manner where the executive branch does not have a choice of where to cut. As an example, if there is a federal employee responsible from removing gum from the runway, you can't just cut him and so that a tower remains open. No, you get to keep to guy, but his hours get cut a percentage so that he only removes 98% of the gum or whatever the percentage of cuts was. Read the effing bill.

 

Let me guess, you run a "small business" and watch fox news.

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God, I hate US of A sometimes. The most obtuse, misinformed bunch on the face on this planet in a country where the actual bills are public knowledge and available for reading. It almost seems like the first amendment is a complete waste on the population. The bill is written specifically in such a manner where the executive branch does not have a choice of where to cut. As an example, if there is a federal employee responsible from removing gum from the runway, you can't just cut him and so that a tower remains open. No, you get to keep to guy, but his hours get cut a percentage so that he only removes 98% of the gum or whatever the percentage of cuts was. Read the effing bill.

 

Let me guess, you run a "small business" and watch fox news.

 

Don't worry......the Gum Tech will get food stamps and 99 weeks of unemployment, and a tax credit!

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Please do tell where the enlightened get their information from, reveal your sources so that we can all be as informed as you. Even the Ignorant neanderthal small business owners hunger for real journalism. Thank you in advance.

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God, I hate US of A sometimes. The most obtuse, misinformed bunch on the face on this planet in a country where the actual bills are public knowledge and available for reading. It almost seems like the first amendment is a complete waste on the population. The bill is written specifically in such a manner where the executive branch does not have a choice of where to cut. As an example, if there is a federal employee responsible from removing gum from the runway, you can't just cut him and so that a tower remains open. No, you get to keep to guy, but his hours get cut a percentage so that he only removes 98% of the gum or whatever the percentage of cuts was. Read the effing bill.

 

Let me guess, you run a "small business" and watch fox news.

 

+1

Remember the President has the choice of where to cut. Will he execute all the cuts he is scaring everyone with or cut the programs that are truly a waste? Guess we will see next week.

 

I know this is not aviation related but seeing how misinformed everyone is on the face of this planet.... It was your damn cool, calm and composed and quite frankly, a bit more conservative than RR, co-pilot Barry(and his minions) who came up with the sequester idea. If you do research on your extensive information sources you might come up with Bob Woodward, who broke the story and apparently pissed of the cool and collected bunch in the oval office, so much that the reporter was told he would regret it. The following excerpt is from CNN, perhaps a source that is approved by those who are really smart and on top of it all...  (Don't mean to be a dick, but it really irks me when all of a sudden those who have different opinions are labeled as misinformed idiots).

 

WOLF BLITZER, CNN: You're used to this kind of stuff, but share with our viewers what's going on between you and the White House.

BOB WOODWARD: Well, they're not happy at all and some people kind of, you know, said, look, 'we don't see eye to eye on this.' They never really said, though, afterwards, they've said that this is factually wrong, and they -- and it was said to me in an e-mail by a top --

BLITZER: What was said?

WOODWARD: It was said very clearly, you will regret doing this.

BLITZER: Who sent that e-mail to you?

WOODWARD: Well, I'm not going to say.

BLITZER: Was it a senior person at the White House?

WOODWARD: A very senior person. And just as a matter -- I mean, it makes me very uncomfortable to have the White House telling reporters, 'you're going to regret doing something that you believe in, and even though we don't look at it that way, you do look at it that way.' I think if Barack Obama knew that was part of the communication's strategy, let's hope it's not a strategy, that it's a tactic that somebody's employed, and said, 'Look, we don't go around trying to say to reporters, if you, in an honest way, present something we don't like, that, you know, you're going to regret this.' It's Mickey Mouse. (The Situation Room, February 27, 2013)

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Sequestration is a doomsday device designed to cut spending in case the super committee couldnt reach a deal on a budget. They didn't, so here we are. 

 

Anyways, since we are talking politics, and spending plus deficit is the number one problem we face today, perhaps it is a good thing. Until they cut spending on soemthing you (pilots) enjoy at the taxpayer's expense.  The solution is to always cut spending on something you don't use.

 

MURRICA.

 

 

"The Budget Control Act of 2011 (BCA) established a 12 member Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction  (or “super committee”)  charged with reducing the deficit by an additional $1.2 - $1.5 trillion over ten years. The BCA also included a sequestration hammer should the super committee fail, a provision intended to “force” the super committee to act.

Despite the threat of sequestration, the super committee failed. Announcing its inability to reach an agreement on November 21, 2011, the members of the bipartisan committee stated  that "after months of hard work and intense deliberations, we have come to the conclusion today that it will not be possible to make any bipartisan agreement available to the public before the committee's deadline."

So, as established in the BCA, sequestration was triggered when the super committee failed to reach an agreement. Sequestration generates automatic cuts for each of nine years, FY 13-21, totaling $1.2 trillion. Sequestration was originally scheduled to take effect on Jan. 2, 2013. However, it was delayed for two months - until March 1, 2013, by the deal struck on New Year's Eve, called the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012.

Now, without Congressional action to prevent sequestration, the first round of cuts will take place on March 1, 2013.The Budget Control Act of 2011 (BCA) established a 12 member Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction  (or “super committee”)  charged with reducing the deficit by an additional $1.2 - $1.5 trillion over ten years. The BCA also included a sequestration hammer should the super committee fail, a provision intended to “force” the super committee to act.

Despite the threat of sequestration, the super committee failed. Announcing its inability to reach an agreement on November 21, 2011, the members of the bipartisan committee stated  that "after months of hard work and intense deliberations, we have come to the conclusion today that it will not be possible to make any bipartisan agreement available to the public before the committee's deadline."

So, as established in the BCA, sequestration was triggered when the super committee failed to reach an agreement. Sequestration generates automatic cuts for each of nine years, FY 13-21, totaling $1.2 trillion. Sequestration was originally scheduled to take effect on Jan. 2, 2013. However, it was delayed for two months - until March 1, 2013, by the deal struck on New Year's Eve, called the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012.

Now, without Congressional action to prevent sequestration, the first round of cuts will take place on March 1, 2013."

 

source: http://www.ideamoneywatch.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=72

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God, I hate US of A sometimes. The most obtuse, misinformed bunch on the face on this planet in a country where the actual bills are public knowledge and available for reading. It almost seems like the first amendment is a complete waste on the population. The bill is written specifically in such a manner where the executive branch does not have a choice of where to cut. As an example, if there is a federal employee responsible from removing gum from the runway, you can't just cut him and so that a tower remains open. No, you get to keep to guy, but his hours get cut a percentage so that he only removes 98% of the gum or whatever the percentage of cuts was. Read the effing bill.

 

Let me guess, you run a "small business" and watch fox news.

I must of hit a nerve, sorry. Sorry it appeared I only blamed one side or one branch. Both the executive and legislative branch have failed us. I'm sorry that our Country has made successful people the big bad wolves that should be hated and taxed into submission. I don't own a small buisness but I do watch fox news. I would watch other news agencies but I don't appreciate being misinformed. I wasn't refering to the gov employee forloughs which I know plenty about.

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Sequestration is a doomsday device designed to cut spending in case the super committee couldnt reach a deal on a budget. They didn't, so here we are. 

 

Anyways, since we are talking politics, and spending plus deficit is the number one problem we face today, perhaps it is a good thing. Until they cut spending on soemthing you (pilots) enjoy at the taxpayer's expense.  The solution is to always cut spending on something you don't use.

 

MURRICA.

 

 

"The Budget Control Act of 2011 (BCA) established a 12 member Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction  (or “super committee”)  charged with reducing the deficit by an additional $1.2 - $1.5 trillion over ten years. The BCA also included a sequestration hammer should the super committee fail, a provision intended to “force” the super committee to act.

Despite the threat of sequestration, the super committee failed. Announcing its inability to reach an agreement on November 21, 2011, the members of the bipartisan committee stated  that "after months of hard work and intense deliberations, we have come to the conclusion today that it will not be possible to make any bipartisan agreement available to the public before the committee's deadline."

So, as established in the BCA, sequestration was triggered when the super committee failed to reach an agreement. Sequestration generates automatic cuts for each of nine years, FY 13-21, totaling $1.2 trillion. Sequestration was originally scheduled to take effect on Jan. 2, 2013. However, it was delayed for two months - until March 1, 2013, by the deal struck on New Year's Eve, called the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012.

Now, without Congressional action to prevent sequestration, the first round of cuts will take place on March 1, 2013.The Budget Control Act of 2011 (BCA) established a 12 member Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction  (or “super committee”)  charged with reducing the deficit by an additional $1.2 - $1.5 trillion over ten years. The BCA also included a sequestration hammer should the super committee fail, a provision intended to “force” the super committee to act.

Despite the threat of sequestration, the super committee failed. Announcing its inability to reach an agreement on November 21, 2011, the members of the bipartisan committee stated  that "after months of hard work and intense deliberations, we have come to the conclusion today that it will not be possible to make any bipartisan agreement available to the public before the committee's deadline."

So, as established in the BCA, sequestration was triggered when the super committee failed to reach an agreement. Sequestration generates automatic cuts for each of nine years, FY 13-21, totaling $1.2 trillion. Sequestration was originally scheduled to take effect on Jan. 2, 2013. However, it was delayed for two months - until March 1, 2013, by the deal struck on New Year's Eve, called the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012.

Now, without Congressional action to prevent sequestration, the first round of cuts will take place on March 1, 2013."

 

source: http://www.ideamoneywatch.com/main/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=72

Guess I don't pay taxes on my airline tickets and 100 low lead. I am with Berterelli...stop talking and start closing and cutting until you can balance a budget
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I know this is not aviation related but seeing how misinformed everyone is on the face of this planet.... It was your damn cool, calm and composed and quite frankly, a bit more conservative than RR, co-pilot Barry(and his minions) who came up with the sequester idea. If you do research on your extensive information sources you might come up with Bob Woodward, who broke the story and apparently pissed of the cool and collected bunch in the oval office, so much that the reporter was told he would regret it. The following excerpt is from CNN, perhaps a source that is approved by those who are really smart and on top of it all...  (Don't mean to be a dick, but it really irks me when all of a sudden those who have different opinions are labeled as misinformed idiots).

 

WOLF BLITZER, CNN: You're used to this kind of stuff, but share with our viewers what's going on between you and the White House.

BOB WOODWARD: Well, they're not happy at all and some people kind of, you know, said, look, 'we don't see eye to eye on this.' They never really said, though, afterwards, they've said that this is factually wrong, and they -- and it was said to me in an e-mail by a top --

BLITZER: What was said?

WOODWARD: It was said very clearly, you will regret doing this.

BLITZER: Who sent that e-mail to you?

WOODWARD: Well, I'm not going to say.

BLITZER: Was it a senior person at the White House?

WOODWARD: A very senior person. And just as a matter -- I mean, it makes me very uncomfortable to have the White House telling reporters, 'you're going to regret doing something that you believe in, and even though we don't look at it that way, you do look at it that way.' I think if Barack Obama knew that was part of the communication's strategy, let's hope it's not a strategy, that it's a tactic that somebody's employed, and said, 'Look, we don't go around trying to say to reporters, if you, in an honest way, present something we don't like, that, you know, you're going to regret this.' It's Mickey Mouse. (The Situation Room, February 27, 2013)

I like when idiots speak. It shows you where they are so you do not trip over them.
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No budget in 4 years? Why start now? As far as unsafe skies and laying off controllers? Why not put off some of the airport improvements? I know where there is an airport that had a runway extension to 5500 ft, it has no tower, no published IP, very few planes land there but federal funds paid for a runway extension. How many more across the country can be put off till things improve?. Dont get me wrong, I am just sayin ATC isnt the FIRST place to look when cutting. This regime has used scare tactics since day one. No governance only campaigning. Its been a a campaing since the begining. All this is intentional. " Folks, fasten your seatbelts and remain seated, it's going to be a bumpy ride" That being said lets talk Mooney while we are still "allowed" to fly them, there are plenty of political forums on the web.

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So, if we actually get back to the subject, sort of, I believe the entire cut is something around 2.7% of the budget and it is a real cut not a cut in the increase in spending.  One of the very first times a real cut is being initiated.  If the FAA can't find a way to cut just 2.7% without jeopardizing safety, they aren't trying. If congress and the WH would agree to let agencies make their own decisions on where and how to cut, it should actually be pretty easy to eliminate programs proven of no benefit (like the biennial flight review) and keep those that do help.  Also, a few less control towers may not be such a bad thing.  We have always flown into uncontrolled airports and done very well in both IFR and VFR.  I think we should try it and see.  It may be that even more cuts could be made without serious sacrifice.

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So, if we actually get back to the subject, sort of, I believe the entire cut is something around 2.7% of the budget and it is a real cut not a cut in the increase in spending.  One of the very first times a real cut is being initiated.  If the FAA can't find a way to cut just 2.7% without jeopardizing safety, they aren't trying. If congress and the WH would agree to let agencies make their own decisions on where and how to cut, it should actually be pretty easy to eliminate programs proven of no benefit (like the biennial flight review) and keep those that do help.  Also, a few less control towers may not be such a bad thing.  We have always flown into uncontrolled airports and done very well in both IFR and VFR.  I think we should try it and see.  It may be that even more cuts could be made without serious sacrifice.

 

I knew when I started this thread that it is politically very charged.  And folks here supporting one side of the aisle or the other might have a food fight just as the folks on each side of the aisle in Washington are having a food fight.  Usually I don't want to read about politics here, esp in threads about something else (eg. someone wants a seatbelt STC and next thing you know lack of seat belts turns into a politics rant against one party or another).  This time I started a thread to talk about the aviation impact of the loss of controllers in the system.  But I know it is so closely linked to the reasons and plenty of blame for all for the reason we are here at the end of Feb on the eve of sequestration (the very word I never even used in my entire life before this week...), that it probably is fine and expected that we rant and scream about this.  Its just plain stupid.

 

Back to topic - what will be the impact of towers closing.  David, I agree, some towers are probably just not needed.  Some surely are.  It is my opinion as I said in the beginning above that someone is going to get hurt soon if all of these 200+ towers close, someone who would not have been hurt in an airplane crash otherwise.  I pray I  it is not me and none of you good folks, and I pray I am just plain wrong and no one gets hurt at all.  The FAA says there will be no safety impact but I just do not know how they can say that with confidence.

 

I gather that they will also reduce staff at many of the largest airports, even if they are staying open.  This will muck up the flow of the airline service and lots and lots of folks will miss airplanes and have long waits.

 

I don't see this as a "don't cut my favorite interest" discussion.  I am well aware that EVERYTHING is being cut, airplanes, education, defense, fda, epa, everything. And the discussion is so closely linked to if the question if we should be here today, in this position at all, and how to proceed, and whose fault it is and so forth.... But it is an airplane forum so I am mostly just interested to talk with you folks about airplanes and the impact on airplanes.  Although I don't mind actually if it leaks into politics generally.

 

I can't keep but thinking that this is like the waning days of rome and we have all this nice infrastructure built by better funded wiser folks from generations ago, that we can no longer afford to maintain and we will just enjoy and use it until it crumbles.

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The bottom line is that they are cuttin .02 of every dollar "of growth". There is no real cut back of spending, its a cutback of the growth of spendin. They are not cutting. Times are tough right now and now that all of us have tightened our belts, its time for the government to spend our money just a little more wisely. To cut 2% off the growth of spendin they can close our tower from 7:30pm to 9pm when it normally closes. That is 2% of total spending for the tower (not of the growth). Its more like shutting it down 15 minutes earlier each day. There doesn't need to be these painfull drastic cuts.

 

Here in Fort Lauderdale instead of cutting Police, Teachers, and first responders, maybe they shoud cut out the Millions of dollars worth of landscaping and sprinker systems on the highways. Maybe they do not need to install pavers at all the intersections downtown. Maybe they don't need to repave the roads every 6 months. I don't care what side of the aisle you are on, lets just use some common sense.   

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I think the scare tactics demonstrate the credibility......or lack thereof.......of the people using them. This needs to happen.....for better or worse......so that the elected elite will STFU and get to work. These 11th hour deals at each crisis do not solve problems, they delay the inevitable.

Just remember.....WE elected these failures, so this is OUR fault! Now we have do deal with it!

My opinion only!

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It is our fault!!!! No question. We all cry that Congress does nothing, and their approval rating is terrible. Then on election day we vote them all back in!! We are to blame, we have becaome an apathetic, fat, lazy people and we deserve what we have now.

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We live under a government where politicians use creative math like "We're not going to invade Canada 8 years from now.  Let's call that saving/spending reduction."

 

When the FAA "Shut Down" a year and a half ago, I liked buying airline tickets tax free before the airlines raised their rates.  Nothing bad happened.  My plane didn't fall out of the sky either.

 

We get a bunch of manufactured crises to justify not getting rid of 2% of our government spending.  It's time to take some pain now before it absolutely wrecks us in the future.

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Here in New Orleans with the “cuts” coming down the pipe they are talking about closing KNEW tower. The tower only operates between 0800 and 1800 daily. The biggest claim is that military aircraft will not land at any non-towered airports. I guess the military does not believe their pilots can or trust their pilots to fly. After all a non-towered airport is not much different from a 4 way stop sign on the highway. Besides, if a locality wants to keep an airport towered for any economic gain then they can support the tower locally FAA or contract run and locally paid for. Major airports will not be affected by this and the Enroute system will not be affected by this. We will not lose much if a few smaller airports that currently have towers would have tem closed. Maybe an RCO at these locations is a more cost effective solution to getting IFR clearances and releases. Another place the FAA can save money is on charts. Publish sectionals yearly and remove all obstructions that are less than 500AGL and > 4 miles from an airport and put a warning on the charts numerous obstacles below 500ft use caution below 500ft AGL. Publish IFR charts and IAPs every 6 months. In the mean time don’t change the approaches.

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Here in New Orleans with the “cuts” coming down the pipe they are talking about closing KNEW tower. The tower only operates between 0800 and 1800 daily. The biggest claim is that military aircraft will not land at any non-towered airports. I guess the military does not believe their pilots can or trust their pilots to fly. .

 

This isn't true.  They land at Bay Minette (1R8) in Alabama all the time, and I've seen them at other non-towered airports.

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