Flying with no fuel in one wing

[yvesg]

Thanks guys for all your inputs. The curing would take 4 Days according to my mechanic and due to that big weather system coming (from you guys), I decided to wait before retrieving the aircraft back. I will put some fuel in the sealed thank however not Full.

Yves

[Lood]

I flew with one tank empty yesterday. Apart from the opposite wing obviously being a little more heavy, that's it - no other surprises.

 

WRT restarting the engine in flight, I was taught to, and my POH states that the throttle must be pulled back to idle before restarting the engine in flight. Apparently, you run the risk of over speeding the engine when attempting such a restart with the throttle fully open. Makes sense to me.

[jetdriven]

If you pull the throttle to 1/2 or less, it wont overspeed when it relights. I go through this procedure with all BFR's and training with my Mooney partners. Switch fuel off. pull throttle to 1/2, fuel on, let it stabilize, then normal cruise power.

[Alan Fox]

One thing to consider , when the gear is extended (down) the aileron travel is reduced about 30% by the gear belcrank.....

[John Pleisse]

 So that estimated 10 could be 5 or it could be 15. Why not at least take one unknown out which is what tank it's in. That way you have continuous access to it should you need it.

 

Because (IMHO), you lose redundancy. Look there are a lot of guys who'll fly 1100nm with a tail wind and want to avoid stops. I do three or four hour legs and play it safe on multiple levels, leaving 12-15gals in each tank. My refuel estimates per side are almost w/in a half a gallon.

[FloridaMan]

I do it all the time when I fly long cross county flights. If I get 3 hours out of the tank that I warmed up on and climbed out on (from departure time, not power on time), then I know I have three hours in the other tank, or, as I think of it, two hours with reserve. 

 

I've also run my right tank dry before to see how much it took. I had my hand on the fuel selector and I kept an eye on the fuel pressure gauge. I switched tanks immediately when the pressure dropped, didn't turn on the fuel pump and the engine sputtered for a couple seconds and came back to life. 

 

I also like my available fuel to all be in one tank when it comes to landing if I land in my reserve. Having "an hour" left that's split between two sides does not appeal to me. 

[sreid]

One thing to consider , when the gear is extended (down) the aileron travel is reduced about 30% by the gear belcrank.....

What kind of airplane are you talking about?

[jlunseth]

I have posted this before, but don't you turbo guys try running it dry and restarting, not when you are above 12,000 anyway.  Read your POH on how difficult it is to restart if you lose the engine at high altitude, which means your turbo is no longer being powered.  Restart may have to wait until you have lost ten thousand feet, and then you are starting a cold engine.  If you just gotta try running one dry do it at low alt.

[Alan Fox]

What kind of airplane are you talking about?

Yours....... When it is on the ground , notice the aileron travel in the yoke.... Than do it in the air.....  Or next time they swing the gear would be more safe...

[John Pleisse]

I think they invented a tank switch, so if you ended up with water, a clogged screen or ice on your vent, you could switch tanks and have ample fuel. I would never run a tank dry.

[sreid]

 

Yours....... When it is on the ground , notice the aileron travel in the yoke.... Than do it in the air.....  Or next time they swing the gear would be more safe...

I've never heard of this; I suppose I could have missed it somehow. But, if your airplane does this, I think you should check out your aileron and gear system thouroughly.

[Alan Fox]

 

I've never heard of this; I suppose I could have missed it somehow. But, if your airplane does this, I think you should check out your aileron and gear system thouroughly.

Actually thats the way they work.... Probably the result of trying to shove 10 lbs of shit into a three lb bag....

[RJBrown]

I tried to turn off an engine once in flight for a low oil precautionary landing. Could not slow enough to get the prop to stop windmilling. With the fuel and ignition off it continued to wind mill. Fuel and spark restored it started right up. It would be hard to be in a position where a restart was hard.

Running out of gas on one side and switching over to the other is a non event. Yes knowing where the last 10-15 gallons is FOR SURE can be a comforting feeling.

Once at the end of a flight from Brownsville TX to Cenntennial CO they closed the airport for some reason.ATIS had not warned of a problem but as I left flight following I was told not to land by tower. They indicated a 10 min wait. I circled on the lowest tank in the direction of that low tank. Tower called and cleared me to land.

Now for the stupid pilot trick. I forgot to switch back to the tank with gas in it. 50 feet in the air I ran out of gas. Upon feeling the stumble I immediately switched tanks. It fired right up and I was able to taxi to the hanger.

I think this is something that should be practiced. Once practiced you can respond properly to what is the most common reason for engine failure there is. Being stupid. It can be safely practiced at altitude near an airport. Learning what it feels like and what a non event it is will help you if you ever make the same stupid mistak I did.

[scottfromiowa]

I tried to turn off an engine once in flight for a low oil precautionary landing. Could not slow enough to get the prop to stop windmilling. With the fuel and ignition off it continued to wind mill. Fuel and spark restored it started right up. It would be hard to be in a position where a restart was hard.

Running out of gas on one side and switching over to the other is a non event. Yes knowing where the last 10-15 gallons is FOR SURE can be a comforting feeling.

Once at the end of a flight from Brownsville TX to Cenntennial CO they closed the airport for some reason.ATIS had not warned of a problem but as I left flight following I was told not to land by tower. They indicated a 10 min wait. I circled on the lowest tank in the direction of that low tank. Tower called and cleared me to land.

Now for the stupid pilot trick. I forgot to switch back to the tank with gas in it. 50 feet in the air I ran out of gas. Upon feeling the stumble I immediately switched tanks. It fired right up and I was able to taxi to the hanger.

I think this is something that should be practiced. Once practiced you can respond properly to what is the most common reason for engine failure there is. Being stupid. It can be safely practiced at altitude near an airport. Learning what it feels like and what a non event it is will help you if you ever make the same stupid mistak I did.

I have run a tank dry.  It was a non-event.  Not going to do it again.  I fly for pleasure.  I sump my tanks manually before every flight and check fuel quantity manually with a measured stick.  I record the fuel level in my EI fuel computer.  When I level off and lean to approximately 10GPH (may be less, but not more) I note fuel used in climb.  I switch tanks at 1-hour.  I switch tanks after two hours...and three and four.  Having fuel in both tanks is like having two mags it's redundancy.  If you have a fuel totalizer you know which tank has more fuel.  Land on that tank.  End of story.  This running a tank dry is B.S. in a pleasure aircraft with the current fuel monitor technology...unless you are pretending to be Jimmy Stewart pretending to by Lindy.  Have fun with that.

[201er]

What good is redundancy when you are at a heightened risk of running it dry at the most demanding moments when you may be depending on that reserve? If we all accept the importance of having a fuel reserve available, then why is it so difficult to accept ensuring it is in one easy to access place rather than split across two?

 

If you arrive with 10 gallons remaining (well above VFR minimum reserve), but it's split between 2 tanks, should you be forced to use it, you will end up with an engine burn out somewhere near the 5 gallon remaining point +/- a couple gallons. Or you will play chicken again and switch before you run out and leave behind a good 2-5 gallons in the other tank. Now you're looking at another risk of killing the engine should you have to land with just 2 gallons remaining. On the flipside, if all 10 are in one tank... whether you land with 10, 8, or 2 gallons you will continue running without switching a tank again.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting a regular habit of tapping into that reserve. However, in order to make that reserve actually useful should it be required, having it available in one place must be not only the easiest but safest measure.

[RJBrown]

Scott I understand the argument. Every pilot only thinks it is the other guy that makes fuel mistakes. The I will never put myself in that situation argument is why it happens. What I am saying is if you really use you plane to its full capabilities at some point the variables will line up against you and changes will need to be made. A great plan means nothing if conditions change. Running a tank dry can be a usefull tool. Planning to be that close is stupid.

I planned a flight from APA to my sisters in Cinncinnati. The fuel reserve was the tailwind component. Initially the tailwind was not as predicted so I slowed to keep the fuel reserve safe. Later the winds turned in my favor I was able to speed up. With winds on the tail now exceeding those forecast I was able to land with 30 gallons still on board. The other extreme was a trip from APA to Phoenix FFZ. That trip was only 494 nautical and should have been an easy trip in the rented turbo Arrow. We landed short and slept on the couches of a closed FBO in Sho Lo. Headwinds were so bad that the advertised range of 700 nautical was not enough.

[scottfromiowa]

What good is redundancy when you are at a heightened risk of running it dry at the most demanding moments when you may be depending on that reserve? If we all accept the importance of having a fuel reserve available, then why is it so difficult to accept ensuring it is in one easy to access place rather than split across two?

 

If you arrive with 10 gallons remaining (well above VFR minimum reserve), but it's split between 2 tanks, should you be forced to use it, you will end up with an engine burn out somewhere near the 5 gallon remaining point +/- a couple gallons. Or you will play chicken again and switch before you run out and leave behind a good 2-5 gallons in the other tank. Now you're looking at another risk of killing the engine should you have to land with just 2 gallons remaining. On the flipside, if all 10 are in one tank... whether you land with 10, 8, or 2 gallons you will continue running without switching a tank again.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting a regular habit of tapping into that reserve. However, in order to make that reserve actually useful should it be required, having it available in one place must be not only the easiest but safest measure.

"having it available in one place must be not only the easiest but safest measure"...I disagree as stated.  Just don't agree with the logic.  Not trying to be obtuse.  I am just communicating my differing opinion.  NOT trying to change your or others practice...just stating my oposition as I did last time this was discussed on Mooneyspace.

[sreid]

Actually thats the way they work.... Probably the result of trying to shove 10 lbs of shit into a three lb bag....

I recently had the inspection plate off the right aileron bellcrank area. Wasn't specifically looking at the aileron travel, but it appeared that the bellcrank hit the adjustable stop bolts at full travel trailing edge up or trailing edge down. The aircraft was sitting on its gears parked on the ground. Since already hitting the stop bolts, I don't see how it could possibly have 30% more aileron travel with the landing gears retracted. But maybe I missed something because like I said I wasn't specifically looking at this. Do you have any reference, aileron travel specs from a manual, etc...?

[Parker_Woodruff]

On long trips, I typically fly 30 gallons all at one time out of one wing (37.8 usable in each) and then fly the rest of the flight on the other tank.  I will never plan a flight that leaves me burning more than 62 gallons (or leaving me less than 13 gallons).  13 gallons is my block number for 1 hour of normal cruise power and takeoff power during a missed approach.  And of course I monitor the fuel burn during the flight and make adjustments accordingly.

 

Flights less than 3 hours typically switch tanks every hour.

[Alan Fox]

I am about to ferry a mooney with only one operable tank.... Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated... Total trip = 3.4 hrs , longest of three legs should be 1 hr 20 minutes.....  plane is a M20C so I shoud plan for 135 kts true .... Tail wind for the duration , no flight time over water...... Planning for 11 gph , all VFR so I am allowing a max of 1.5 hrs per leg.....

[danb35]

Getting back to the question that started this thread, and disregarding the wisdom of doing this as a regular practice, I note that the POH for at least some of the earlier models recommends flying an hour on one tank, running the other tank dry, then returning to the first tank.  The factory clearly felt that there were no significant adverse flight characteristics resulting from such a fuel imbalance.

[Hank]

I am about to ferry a mooney with only one operable tank.... Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated... Total trip = 3.4 hrs , longest of three legs should be 1 hr 20 minutes.....  plane is a M20C so I shoud plan for 135 kts true .... Tail wind for the duration , no flight time over water...... Planning for 11 gph , all VFR so I am allowing a max of 1.5 hrs per leg.....

 

That's an awful high fuel burn! Must be influenced by the Bo avatar and the E-model in your signature.

 

I fly my C using the charts in the POH Owner's Manual usually, or MP + RPM = 46 or less, at 9 gph. One tank is 26 gallons, almost 3 hours' duration, or 2 hours plus even IFR reserves. Lean to rough, enrichen to smooth works for many; I have a single-point EGT and usually set it 50 ROP since LOP is not an option.

 

Do pull the throttle off the stop at altitude, that will stop the auto-enrichment in the carburetor at full throttle. I generally pull the throttle back just far enough to make the MP needle move when flying high [>6000 msl]. In cruise at 8-10K, 21"/2500 works very well, or WOT - a tad when I can't pull 21" any more. Some people who want max performance will lean at WOT, then pull the throttle back and watch for a sudden drop in EGT, then lean again, but that's too much trouble for me. I have a 201-windshield and 3-blade, and pretty much make book speed [165 mph true; often indicating ~135 mph at 9000'].

 

I have never flown with 150-lb fuel imbalance, although I have flown with 2 people sitting on the right side. Unless you are flying left-tank only, you should do alright, I think. But my opinion is backed by neither science nor data, so it's worth what you paid for it.

[Alan Fox]

That's an awful high fuel burn! Must be influenced by the Bo avatar and the E-model in your signature.

 

I fly my C using the charts in the POH Owner's Manual usually, or MP + RPM = 46 or less, at 9 gph. One tank is 26 gallons, almost 3 hours' duration, or 2 hours plus even IFR reserves. Lean to rough, enrichen to smooth works for many; I have a single-point EGT and usually set it 50 ROP since LOP is not an option.

 

Do pull the throttle off the stop at altitude, that will stop the auto-enrichment in the carburetor at full throttle. I generally pull the throttle back just far enough to make the MP needle move when flying high [>6000 msl]. In cruise at 8-10K, 21"/2500 works very well, or WOT - a tad when I can't pull 21" any more. Some people who want max performance will lean at WOT, then pull the throttle back and watch for a sudden drop in EGT, then lean again, but that's too much trouble for me. I have a 201-windshield and 3-blade, and pretty much make book speed [165 mph true; often indicating ~135 mph at 9000'].

 

I have never flown with 150-lb fuel imbalance, although I have flown with 2 people sitting on the right side. Unless you are flying left-tank only, you should do alright, I think. But my opinion is backed by neither science nor data, so it's worth what you paid for it.

The 11 gph is an err on the extreme side of caution , as there will be no redundancy... Regards...

[jetdriven]

I recently had the inspection plate off the right aileron bellcrank area. Wasn't specifically looking at the aileron travel, but it appeared that the bellcrank hit the adjustable stop bolts at full travel trailing edge up or trailing edge down. The aircraft was sitting on its gears parked on the ground. Since already hitting the stop bolts, I don't see how it could possibly have 30% more aileron travel with the landing gears retracted. But maybe I missed something because like I said I wasn't specifically looking at this. Do you have any reference, aileron travel specs from a manual, etc...?

 

I just checked this today. The aileron travel is the same gear up or down.  IDK where he got that idea...

[jetdriven]

Actually thats the way they work.... Probably the result of trying to shove 10 lbs of shit into a three lb bag....

 

I've never seen a 20 NMPG Bonanza either.....