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Rochester MN Flying Club Cessna Crash


aaronk25

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I am president of our Flying club in Rochester MN, we have about 80 Members and 5 aircraft. 172, archer, warrior, ct flight design and a SR22. I have a M20J myself, and couldn't get the rest of the club to buy off on Mooney.

Anyways, I got a call from the tower, on sunday and our 172 went missing somewhere after the hand off from appoach to tower, a mile short of the runway. There was a 23year old flight instructor in the right seat with a student pilot in the left, adult and child in the back.

Rochester had some thick ground fog roll in with RvR at 1080. less than 1/4 mile, ceilings at 100 or lower. The approach controller (Also a flight insturctor) advised him that a near by airport 20 miles away KAUM was clear sky, and might be a better choice that KRST.

The instructor chose to go to KAUM and debated "trying" to shoot the approach into KRST. He commited to going to KAUM then a challenger jet was able to get into RST, so he said ill try the ILS. Approach reminded him how crappy the condidtions were. Emergancy crews found our 172 in a feild 15Min later. Im guessing he got dissorianted, as looking across the cock pit to look at the instruments and looking up for lights can really screw a person up.

All got out alive, 1 broken toe, and a cut on the forehead. I just can't belive that cessna held together that well. A well know business man in the left seat young instructor in the Right seat. I guess the pressure the Instructor placed on himself was to much, and felt compelled to try to get everyone to the destination airport.

Pretty stupid. The student said they never knew the ground was there till they hit it. Amazing they lived.

Aaron

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http://www.myfox47.com/category/136740/video

I was very impressed with our local News Channel as I invited them to our hangers to do a interview. They agreed to try to help to show a postive image on GA and show all the things we do to make these planes safer. They did a good job of pegging this as a pilot taking chances not, small aircraft being unsafe. 2 thumbs up for the news, for once!

Aaronhttp://www.myfox47.com/category/136740/video

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Glad all made it alive... we all may learn from this.... no matter what our experience level is... we all can mess up.. be as professional as possible and think SAFETY all the time... our lives are precious... go-around, shoot the missed approach, land short of your destination for extra fuel, etc....

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The off airport landing was due to a restriction in the fuel vent behind the wing spar. I cant remember what it was plugged with but it had a plug so the engine was starved with fuel and the pilot excuted a forced landing in a corn feild. Since the prop was stopped at time of landing it didn't hurt anything except the corn, of which our insurance company cut a check to the farmer for. That incident happend almost 30 years ago.

The airplane only had about 3000 hours on it then. It nows has 12,000 hours!!!! But it certainly wont have anymore, its done for! Insurance adjuster to be onsite tomorrow. Its still in the feild right now. If anyone flies in to RST look about 1 mile short of 13 and 1/4 mile to the right and you willl see it.

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Also glad nobody hurt more.Now since nobody commented on this,I will state how important it is to fly the approach or fly the missed...at 1mile and especially 1/4 mile right of center line...his needle indications would have shown a full scale deflection ...calling for an immediate missed approach.His glidescope also would have called for a climb as at 1 mile it would also have shown a full scale deflection.The weather during this was not that bad...no wind or turbulence just some localized low fog.It appears he was enticed to take a look but was never established onto the ils approach corridor.He was legal in that even though tower called rvr/vis below ils minimums..since he was part 91..he could legally fly the approach..the problem it appears was a last minute attempt at this approach with out a full briefing.Also the questionable attempt doing so from the right seat which would have affected his scan...in the end..dumb luck saved him and his passengers..kpc.

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Aaron,

In reading your post, I am still shocked as to what you were trying to receive by sharing this information. I am sure you feel important to be privy to information after a crash, and feel as though sharing your gossip with others is entertaining, however you need to be careful stating such information when an investigation has not been completed. I know you were not onboard that aircraft during that flight. You don't know exactly what happened. You haven't talked to the pilot. I think it is only fair to the pilot and the passengers to not share such information. If your intent is to create something for others to "learn" by, well, that is hard to do if you don't know what actually took place.

You said: "Im guessing he got dissorianted, as looking across the cock pit to look at the instruments and looking up for lights can really screw a person up." Well, he may have been disoriented...but you aren't him, and you weren't there, so why would you jump to that conclusion?

Wouldn't it be interesting if your airplane was at fault? Would that change what information you would post?

Also, for an instrument rated Private Pilot like you to judge the decision making abilities of a CFI, CFII, and former airline pilot is interesting to me. Sounds like he did nothing wrong with his decision making to me. He chose to shoot an approach after a Citation just landed...sounds legit to me, I would do it. He had the gas, and an alternate in mind...why not shoot the approach? Clearly you haven't flown for an airline where you are required to shoot an approach as long as it is legal...and in this case, it was. Now, we may never know why he didn't make it to the runway. Yes, it may have been an error or omission, but it may have been something else. But, I think we can all agree that jumping to conclusions before a formal investigation is complete is not fair to the pilot. What if that had been you?

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Mpls623995,

Congratulations on your first post on mooney space. Hmmm....you live in MN I wonder who you could be? Regardless I shared some thoughts on what happend and they are just that my thoughts.

I was guessing as to what caused the crash. I said "guess" and it's just that, I would think anyone reading this would have thought the same, that it is Aaron's "guess" as to what happend.

May I remind you that you also speculated as to what my motivation was for posting this when you said: I shared this information because It made me feel important to share gossip???? You don't know what my motivation was and you didn't ask, did you.

My motivation for sharing this is first we keep these accidents in the front of our minds as a reminder as to what can happen, everything another element of complexity is added to flight such as ifr,night, minimums, right seat ifr. ECT the risks go up, so be aware of it and what the consequences could be and just make sure to consider it in your decision making process. As some other people pointed out there was nothing illegal with trying to shoot this approach.

And one other tid bit of information, I respect instructors for the extra studying, flying, commitment and training it takes to become a CFI or double I for that matter. But just because someone is a CFI doesn't mean that there decision making is always better, in most cases I would say it is. Just because a college professor is a professor doesn't make them right. I also am a bit upset because the student pilot may never fly again because of what happend. Even going missed with a primary student might make them uneasy about flying. Clear sky's were only 20miles away, just because you can do something doesn't mean it's good JUDGEMENT!

My thoughts were that it may not be illegal to do what this Instructor did, but I thnk it was poor judgement for him to shoot an approach with a primary student in the front left seat and the CFI in the right seat with a RvR of 1080. Again, not illegal but in my opinion not good judgment, especially when severe clear was 20miles away.

In the news immediately it was announced that it was a Rochester flying club plane that crashed and I immediatly got out ahead of it to make sure the public knew that the PIC chose to attempt a approach that the airlines weren't electing to do, so the people watching could arrive at there own conclusion as to what a major contributing factor to the crash was.........the pilots decision to fly in weather that wasn't good. And it wasn't! The last thing we need is people not joining a club because they think there airplane will crash.

Not that it is required but, the PIC never did allowed any impute from his passengers. A responsible instructor would have said, " hey the weather is really crummy in RST, we can try to get in or we could go to Austin where it's clear". People that generally don't fly in small planes seem to have a fear of bad weather, and might have wanted to go elsewhere instead of take a unnecessary chance. But I know that was never explained to the student pilot or the passengers.

Right seat piloting at night combined with shooting a approach that had tower calling for conditions that were below ils mins, has additional risks, of which the passengers didn't have any input and were "along for the ride".

And the only thing wrong with that plane is that the Instructor flew it into the ground.

Aaron

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Aaron,

Yep, this is my first post. And if you are insinuating that I am Scott...you are incorrect. I was, however his instructor at one point, and I can attest to his superior flying skills and judgement. I would trust him to fly my family, any day.

You keep mentioning "flying from the right seat" as if that is less safe than from the left. What seat to do you think is more comfortable for a CFI to fly from? Clearly you have never been an instructor. That is not a poor decision...instructors don't sit in the left seat unless they are teaching an initial CFI applicant.

I think his decision to shoot the approach wasn't a poor one. Even primary students should experience solid IMC and an ILS at some point during their training...it is a MUCH better option than hood time.

So you think he should have asked the opinion of the passengers to see if they wanted to go into KROC first? I mean, that is a choice, I suppose...but he is the PIC, and gathering public opinion when they aren't pilots isn't always a good idea.

And on a last note: for someone in a leadership position, such as yourself, you should be really careful posting such bold statements about an accident and posting pictures on a forum about it before an investigation has taken place. Not only could you and your organization be sued, you never know who is going to read it. The aviation community is a small one, and getting your name out there with posts like this can really come back to bite you.

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mpls623995,

I believe it's completly inappropriate for an instructor to fly an approach with the weather at "RVR 1080, less than 1/4 mile, and ceilings at 100 or lower" in a C172 with a student and passengers.

Legal, sure; stupid, absolutely.

(I've have 50 years flying, with 40 in jets, and have flown my share of approaches to 600 RVR--in air transports.)

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mpls623995,

I believe it's completly inappropriate for an instructor to fly an approach with the weather at "RVR 1080, less than 1/4 mile, and ceilings at 100 or lower" in a C172 with a student and passengers.

Legal, sure; stupid absolutely.

(I've have 50 years flying, with 40 in jets, and have flown my share of approaches to 600 RVR--in air transports.)

Ditto.....BUT I'm not nearly as old as xftrplt B)

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mpls623995,

I believe it's completly inappropriate for an instructor to fly an approach with the weather at "RVR 1080, less than 1/4 mile, and ceilings at 100 or lower" in a C172 with a student and passengers.

Legal, sure; stupid absolutely.

(I've have 50 years flying, with 40 in jets, and have flown my share of approaches to 600 RVR--in air transports.)

Right on! I agree 100%.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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I remember my primary training well. I didn't get any ifr experience except the required hood work. I would have appreciated to ride along or get some actual yoke time in real IMC, as I'm not certain the real danger of it was known until later on.

But I draw the line at maybe give the student ifr experience at the end of there training or after they get their liscense. But to shoot a ILS below min with a student pilot that hasn't soloed is poor judgement in my book.

In addition the plane was checked out to a student pilot, of which the instructor was PIC, but not a member of the club which is fine as long as its a training flight. I'd call ils work with pre-solo students poor judgement and were damn lucky the insurance company agreed to foot the bill. I sure wouldn't want to get into a debate as to the purpose of the flight.

As far as flying from the right seat I am aware instructors fly from the right most of the time even with no one aboard. However when shooting ils to min and below its probably not a good idea unless the plane had a auto pilot or second set of instruments in front of the instructor to limit head movement.

Mpls, you may be the best instructor, airline captain but if we started a poll and asked if the decisions made exercises good judgement, I might be wrong but I think very few would support your case, especially since it wasnt required to land in rst because clear sky's were 20 miles away. Other options were available.

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I was the student pilot onboard 9853Q when it went down last week. I've shared the story of its final flight and the personal lessons learned here. May everyone learn something from our experience and become better pilots because of it. Thank you, Alan.

After reading that post, it sounds to me like a clear case tunnel vision, clearly focusing on ILS needles only and not paying attention to anything else. All could be avoided by proper call outs. I'm like a schizophrenic in my cockpit, talk to myself all the time, especially with others in the cockpit: 1000 to go, 500 to go, 400 to go, 300 to go, 200 to go, 100 to go, go around, mixture, power, 85, flaps up, trim down, climb, unsuspend, etc, etc, etc.

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Flight Instructor's Prayer

The Student is my pilot, Him, I shall not want.

he maketh me forced landings in rough pastures.

he leadeth me into trees and high tension wires.

He destroys my confidence.

He leadeth me into paths of incoming traffic.

yea, Though I ride through the air in the shadow

of death.

I fear all evil. For he is with me,

His stick, His throttle and his rudder confuse me.

He prepares stalls and autorotations in presence

of all other planes My temper runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy have followed me all

the days of my life.

And I shall be grateful if you will spare my life

and let this YO_YO Solo!!

~ Author Unknown

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