Lycoming Echelon M20E/F/J engine upgrade

[Grant]

Lycoming has introduced a new STC engine: IO-390-A3A6 to replace the IO-360 engines in Mooney M20E/F/J models. The engine has the same footprint as the previous engine, but provides additional horsepower (~210HP) and improved climb and cruise performance. See Lycoming's press release here: http://www.lycoming.textron.com/news-and-events/press-releases/release-11-16-09a.html or contact me at Triad Aviation, Inc. for more details:

Grant Hoernke

email: Grant*@*HHTriad.com (remove *'s)

PH: 1-800-334-6437

Maintenance Coordinator

Triad Aviation, Inc., FAA CRS PP4R448M

Burlington, NC 27215 (KBUY)

[RJBrown]

I have seen the press release and it sounds compelling. I am at about 1800 hrs on my MSE engine. I am interested is knowing how much of a cost premium it wiil be to go with the 390. The solid "how much" has been hidden fairly well by Lycoming.

[LFOD]

If they turbo normalize it, they have a deal.

[Kwixdraw]

I tried to check into this and was referred to a local Authorized Service Center. It sounds like this conversion is only available through the ASCs. The ASC in my area had no information or knowledge of the STCd engine change and took my info with a promise to find out about it and call me back. Three weeks now and no call back.  Since my bird is not able to be moved (OK, without taking it apart and trailering it)  I'd like to be able to install the new engine at my hangar once the airframe is ready so that will be a factor in what I decide to do.

I think the ten HP might be a better deal than the boutique rebuilder hype ($$$$$) of flowed heads and the additional 4K for a powerflow exhaust. Old hot rodder saying..There's no replacement for displacement.

[Grant]

For specific numbers - call us @ Triad Aviation (800) 334-6437 (ask for Othman).

Ballpark #'s: Factory NEW IO-390's are ~$ 40K (plus tax and shipping) and Facotry REBUILT IO-390's are ~$30K (plus tax and shipping). Both are available NOW. We are Lycoming and Continental Authorized Service Centers and Distributors. The factory IO-390 is competitavely priced against the factory IO-360's.

[piperpainter]

Do you know if they will let you turn in a O-360 and and pay the diff for a IO-390?

[KSMooniac]

Bryan, I'm not sure there is an STC to put that engine on a C model yet.  Beyond the paperwork issue, you would need a new cowl as well, which is not a trivial exercise either.

[Kwixdraw]

I spoke to Othman at Avid today. He said he believed that some standard props were OK to use on the 390 conversion. He confirmed that the engine could Not be installed by anyone other than a Lycoming Authorized Service Center because there were some baffling changes and other small mods that Lycoming wanted to ensure were done properly. IO-360 is OK for the core. Pleasant guy to chat with. He offered to assist finding alocal ASC who could meet my needs with the aircraft in the condition it is in. 

[MooneyMitch]

The new Mooney Ambassador with the recent IO-390 conversion promises he is going to post here soon.  His Grandkids have been visiting and dominating his computer, but he says they are headed out soon.  I look forward to this information too.  Please continue to stand by...............

[autopatch]

Has anyone installed one of these engine upgrades yet? When I call the Lycoming Service Centers most still haven't heard anything about it.

[MooneyMitch]

I've attempted to contact the owner/operator of this new engine which is installed in a J model.  Hopefully he will respond to us with his impression of this upgrade.  This is the J model with the IO-390 conversion that was on display last year at the Oshkosh Lycoming tent.

[Piloto]

Just doing the math the most speed you will gain is 2.4 kts and 10% in climb performance with a 1gph increase in fuel flow.

José

[PTK]

I think before you jump on the bandwagon you should really do the math forward and backward to see what you are gaining over the IO 360.  What are you really gaining?  IMO it's not worth the extra cost and increased fuel flow.  As the laws of thermodynamics say "there is no free lunch" !!

[KSMooniac]

This topic came up on the AOPA board today and someone posted a link to the cylinder price...I thought our IO-360 jugs were bad since they're sole-source Lycoming at ~$1900-$2000 each.  The IO-390 and IO-580 jugs are $3200!  No thanks.

[KJATCt]

All that for 2-3 Kts? It is hard to believe that this was a financially viable move for Lycoming.

[PTK]

For 2-3 knots?  No way!! I bet if we paid some attention to the rigging and spent a few dollars to have our airframes properly rigged we would gain a few knots from that alone with no increase in fuel consumption.  In actuality we'd come out ahead because we gain speed with no increase in fuel flow. I am refering to the J but it applies to anything.  Proper rigging is paramount IMO before we jump and spend many thousands for an engine!

[Kwixdraw]

Little things like gear door rigging can cost you those couple knots too. You can get really fanatical over it but the Echelon is sure sounding like a no go for a lot of reasons.

[Piloto]

Quote: KJATCt

All that for 2-3 Kts? It is hard to believe that this was a financially viable move for Lycoming.

[fantom]

Below is my post on the 390 from last year, just after MAPA. I confirmed all the"facts" with Lycoming at Sun & Fun last month. For most of us, with the new prop, the governor work, recalibrating some of the gauges, reworked baffling, hoses and mounts and who knows what else,  the conversion will cost north of $50,000 out the door, for several knots and a higher fuel burn.

The several 177's and one M20J with the conversion were Lycoming test cases, had other mods done at the same time, and results are anything but scientific.

Unless Lycoming reduces the cost dramatically, it's a loser, IMHO. Hope, of course springs eternal.

Posted Sep 22, 2009 12:25 PM

Lycoming was at MAPA and gave us an update on the IO-390 A3A6 STC for the J model. It should be ready next month and the E and F, I believe, will following shortly thereafter.

The conversion however, will require a Hartzell 2-blade or 3-blade propeller, work on the governor, new hoses, new motor mounts, and maybe some other re-configuration work. Cost of the engine alone will be around $36K, and given a new prop, the other work, and installation, it sounds like a $50K+ job. Ouch!!

For that you"ll get roller tappets, angled valves, Slick mags, tuned induction, 10 more HP, another 4 knots, about a .5 GPH increase, and a 2 year warranty on labor, parts, and accessories. Your exchange core must be in operable condition.

Email your questions and comments to wgierke@lycoming.textron.com

As reported by the Cezzzzna Pilot's Association (CAP), Lycoming's Mike Kraft was quoted as saying "You *can* run your Lycoming engine lean of peak.  And Lycoming wants to help teach you how!"  Lycoming plans both an updated Service Instruction 1094 on leaning, as well as an interactive online training course in the near future.  Until then, their "don't do it unless you know what you're doing!" admonition stands.  But their progress on this issue is heartening.  Incidentally, the new iE2 series of electronically controlled Lycoming engines will run lean of peak. 

Will wonders never cease?

[MB_M20F]

Did I hear 4 knots? In that case, I simply must have one... :-)

[Piloto]

For that you"ll get roller tappets, angled valves, Slick mags, tuned induction, 10 more HP, another 4 knots, about a .5 GPH increase, and a 2 year warranty on labor, parts, and accessories. Your exchange core must be in operable condition.

The only way you get 4kts is by comparing the new 390(210HP) to a worn out 360(195HP). Otherwise simple math tells you are not going to get more than 2.4 kts. From my experience it is hard to achieve the math numbers. Anytime you replace the same model (runout) engine with a new one the speed will increase slightly, don't be fool by this fact. Fuel flow is directly proportional to engine displacement unless again the comparison is made between a new engine and a worn out engine. For the 390 fuel fow will increase by 1gph (both engines new).

José 

[JohnPleisse]

I just spoke with a reputable Mooney Service Center. The IA told me they hung the new 390 conversion with a 2 blade Top Prop and consisitantly test flew 165KTAS. Honeymoon? Hype? I don't know, but this IA is a low key, straight shooter and if you examine the speed claims of each manufacturer sperately, I seems plausible.

[KSMooniac]

Any idea what kind of power setting and altitude was used to achieve 165 KTAS, and how that was measured?

Welcome to the forum, too!

[JohnPleisse]

I don't know the recommended breakin numbers on the IO390. I suspect 25x25 as with the IO360. Another skeptic?

[Guest Anonymous]

For just 3-4 knots and 10 HP, its just not worth it.  Now the one I am interested in, and that I wish they would certify and STC for my Mooney is this one:  http://www.lycoming.textron.com/news-and-events/pdfs/TIO-360_Engine.pdf

Same footprint as my O-360-A1D and can run the same prop.  Also, according to the line drawings, no cowling change.  No change in case, so someone would probably take my old core, too.

I would love to have my original 180 ponies up to 25K . 

Maybe not as fast as the six pack guys, but going lots faster on 2/3 the avgas!  Heck, since this is the "last airplane I will ever buy", I might even consider taking it into experimental status just to do this.

RFB