Can you slip a Mooney on final?

[PT20J]

26 minutes ago, Mufflerbearing said:

If this is a PPL test requirement how does one take this test and convince the DPE  that this is an unsafe maneuver in this plane and it is better wisdom that we don't do it? 

I don’t believe you can. The DPE is required to test maneuvers in the ACS unless the airplane is incapable of safely performing them. I looked at the POH for the M20R and found no limitation against slips. The only mention of slips I could find was a recommendation to touch down in a slight sideslip for crosswind landings. 

You could try telling the DPE that you don’t want to do slips because many people on the Internet say it’s unsafe, but I doubt you would be successful. The obvious solution would be to use a different airplane. 

Skip
 

 

 

[kortopates]

This was my argument with my instructor and the DPE during my test.  I had heard of this issue, but they were adamant about the importance of showing that I could do this maneuver.  It was a requirement.  I mentioned that, why would I ever slip my plane when I had speed brakes? 

If this is a PPL test requirement how does one take this test and convince the DPE  that this is an unsafe maneuver in this plane and it is better wisdom that we don't do it? 

Like so many things in aviation its not unsafe as long as its done responsibly, not slipping at to low an airspeed nor slipping in a way to unport a low tank. Its definitely something to be aware of the limitations but not to say one should never slip. You'll still find slipping more effective and precise to make a short approach than your speed brakes and a very powerful too to aid your precision when making an emergency (or simulated emergency) power off landing. i.e. a skill which should be learned and practiced responsibility - not feared IMO.

[R-Banger]

5 minutes ago, kortopates said:

1 hour ago, Mufflerbearing said:

This was my argument with my instructor and the DPE during my test.  I had heard of this issue, but they were adamant about the importance of showing that I could do this maneuver.  It was a requirement.  I mentioned that, why would I ever slip my plane when I had speed brakes? 

If this is a PPL test requirement how does one take this test and convince the DPE  that this is an unsafe maneuver in this plane and it is better wisdom that we don't do it? 

 

Like so many things in aviation its not unsafe as long as its done responsibly, not slipping at to low an airspeed nor slipping in a way to unport a low tank. Its definitely something to be aware of the limitations but not to say one should never slip. You'll still find slipping more effective and precise to make a short approach than your speed brakes and a very powerful too to aid your precision when making an emergency (or simulated emergency) power off landing. i.e. a skill which should be learned and practiced responsibility - not feared IMO.

1000% this. I must disclose I don't have time in the long body Mooney's so I won't speak with regards to aerodynamics there. In general, so long as the other variables mentioned above like fuel and airspeed control are well understood there is no harm in executing a proper slip. Remember most aircraft used slips prior to the invention of flaps as a means of adding drag.

I will tell you flying in the Los Angeles area where limited fields are available in the event of an emergency, it is even more crucial that this skill is mastered so that tight patterns can be flown, and the runway can always be made. Get up to altitude with an experienced instructor and practice these slips at slower airspeeds and learn the feel of the airplane. It will talk to you and you will build a comfort level. Most instructors these days are so numbers oriented, they don't emphasize learning the feel of the aircraft. I regularly slip my E with no issues.

With that said a slip is never an excuse for poor planning or an unstable approach. Especially in front of a DPE.

[PT20J]

I slip my M20J sometimes on short final, but if you were riding with me you likely wouldn't notice unless you were paying really close attention. I'm not talking wing really low, full rudder deflection slips. If I need to do that kind of maneuver, I've screwed up and should come back for another try. But sometimes I'm on final and there is thermal updraft or wind gust and I find my self just a tad high which would lead to a long landing. If the power is already well back and I'm on speed, I find the easiest thing to do is just a bit of uncoordinated flight to increase the drag and the sink rate momentarily. It doesn't take much.

Skip

[Ibra]

With DPE, I guess it goes in the breif, I expect if one complety disagree on sidesliping (poh or myth?) they should be able to demonstrate a good short landing without flap/airbreak? or land crosswind crabbing only and know how to transit near the ground? the other alternative is to fly another aircraft that can take some of training heat?

The same applies to engine management on some high performance aircrafts, you can breif your instructor/examiner on your concerns about slamming throttle off from 420F CHT (myth or not who cares?), if he agrees, you may get off the hook from some unexpected engine failures  

Not sure if there are any examiners who still pull off mixture, fuel, circuit breakers, alternator...on PPL checkrides, but few characters are still around, sideslip is far more safer than the above 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Ibra

[ilovecornfields]

I agree that’s its best to address the potential concerns with the DPE beforehand.

One my multiengine checkride the examiner failed the engine on me on my ILS approach just inside the outer marker as I was putting the gear down. I was a little high so I did the appropriate “stuff” and continued the approach with the gear down. He asked me two or three times “is there anything else you want to do?” and I finally said. “No. I’m not pulling the gear up because I’m a little high and I’m not doing a single engine go around (it isn’t part of the private MEL PTS).”

Afterwards he told me that he disagreed about the gear but he understood my reasoning and I passed my checkride.

There are exceptions, of course, but it seems most examiners want to make sure you have the basic flying ability, are safe and are thinking about what you’re doing. It seems like as long as they’re not worried about you crashing or doing something stupid they can be pretty reasonable on the little stuff.

[PT20J]

Before my MEL checkride in a Seminole without unfeathering accumulators, I told the DPE that we shouldn't shut down the right engine because the starter was weak. We launched IFR to VFR on top through the morning stratus at SJC and the first maneuver was a steep turn during which he failed the right engine (of course). So I went with it and shut it down and feathered and we did all the single engine stuff. Then we couldn't get it started (starter wouldn't turn the engine past a compression stroke with the prop feathered) and had to shoot a single engine ILS to minimums. The whole ride lasted like half an hour. We didn't do all the maneuvers, but he said if I could shoot a single engine ILS for real it was good enough and he signed me off.

Skip

[Bob R]

7 hours ago, PT20J said:

I don’t believe you can. The DPE is required to test maneuvers in the ACS unless the airplane is incapable of safely performing them. I looked at the POH for the M20R and found no limitation against slips. The only mention of slips I could find was a recommendation to touch down in a slight sideslip for crosswind landings. 

You could try telling the DPE that you don’t want to do slips because many people on the Internet say it’s unsafe, but I doubt you would be successful. The obvious solution would be to use a different airplane. 

Skip
 

 

 

I had to slip my M20E on final for my commercial check ride

 

Bob. 

[carusoam]

Short body...

nose down, slip away... if you have the short rudder, or an M20B.... expect to run out of rudder with a good cross wind....

Always apply the inputs slowly and smoothly... don’t let the pedals slip out from under your feet... 

That can set up a stall worthy oscillation.... 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[MikeOH]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:49 AM, PT20J said:

Before my MEL checkride in a Seminole without unfeathering accumulators, I told the DPE that we shouldn't shut down the right engine because the starter was weak. We launched IFR to VFR on top through the morning stratus at SJC and the first maneuver was a steep turn during which he failed the right engine (of course). So I went with it and shut it down and feathered and we did all the single engine stuff. Then we couldn't get it started (starter wouldn't turn the engine past a compression stroke with the prop feathered) and had to shoot a single engine ILS to minimums. The whole ride lasted like half an hour. We didn't do all the maneuvers, but he said if I could shoot a single engine ILS for real it was good enough and he signed me off.

Skip

So, what's the Seminole's SEL ROC?

Curious how exciting a missed on a for real minimums ILS might have been on one engine

[eman1200]

Haven’t read the whole thread but I slip my F if/when I need to, nothing to it.

[L. Trotter]

On 5/13/2020 at 1:35 PM, jlunseth said:

In special, rare conditions I have used a technique I call “helicoptering.” Best glide gives you the most distance in a glide. So if you want less distance, throw out the speed brakes, idle the engine, put in full flaps for the drag, and slow to under best glide.  My best glide is 81-85, I drop to 70-75. Might need a little power right at the runway, like in a soft field landing, to arrest the descent rate.

Now you are starting to sound like a back country bush/STOL pilot. Back side of the power curve.....

[carusoam]

JL knows the power curve..! 

power / no-power... who needs a curve..?

We have a few MSers that have put the plane on the runway from miles away... sans power...

We learn so much when these experiences get detailed on MS.

TCs and TNs travel at such high altitudes... the glide range becomes really useable...

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

So, what's the Seminole's SEL ROC?

Curious how exciting a missed on a for real minimums ILS might have been on one engine

I don’t recall the SE ROC, but the trick to single engine landings in a twin is to not have to go around. The thing that screws people up is that the drag of a feathered prop is much less than the drag of an unfeathered prop with an idling engine which can lead to floating and running out of runway and then a hasty attempt at a go around which frequently leads to grief. I have landed twins 3 times with a feathered prop. It’s not a big deal.

Now, taxiing straight on one engine — that’s very difficult.

Skip

[MikeOH]

4 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I don’t recall the SE ROC, but the trick to single engine landings in a twin is to not have to go around. The thing that screws people up is that the drag of a feathered prop is much less than the drag of an unfeathered prop with an idling engine which can lead to floating and running out of runway and then a hasty attempt at a go around which frequently leads to grief. I have landed twins 3 times with a feathered prop. It’s not a big deal.

Now, taxiing straight on one engine — that’s very difficult.

Skip

It's the go-around in actual (at mins) that has me wondering...if I understood you correctly, you were doing this for real.  Was a SE miss doable?

[carusoam]

The blue line on the ASI is the key to single engine ops...

From what i understand....

Going slower than the blue line... you run out of rudder authority.... and get overpowered by the remaining engine when producing full power...

At higher altitudes... you can trade altitude for speed if you got too slow... down low the trade is less available.... staying above the blue line is key....

Don’t hang out there any too long during the T/O and climb.... losing an engine then leaves little time to pull back the remaining throttle...

SE-PP thoughts only, not a twin driver... (things to consider when going the twin route... not a discouragement)

Best  regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

16 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

It's the go-around in actual (at mins) that has me wondering...if I understood you correctly, you were doing this for real.  Was a SE miss doable?

Yes, we could have done it because we were light and there was no nearby terrain so climb gradient wasn’t a factor.

[Ibra]

Just one more reason to sideslip is that you tend to have some control on when to float in the air or settle on the ground, while maintaining runway line at 3ft agl, this is highly relevant when takeoff or landing in gusty conditions as it avoids early lift-off on slow speed takeoff or bounce on high speed landings 

Obviously one can't use flaps for that purpose: they are static setting before takeoff or landing as per POH (some backcountry flyers use them to drop on or pop up bit electric ones are just slow to make use and they are also prone to malfunctions) 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Ibra

[Fly_M20R]

On 5/17/2020 at 12:45 PM, kortopates said:

On 5/17/2020 at 11:30 AM, Mufflerbearing said:

This was my argument with my instructor and the DPE during my test.  I had heard of this issue, but they were adamant about the importance of showing that I could do this maneuver.  It was a requirement.  I mentioned that, why would I ever slip my plane when I had speed brakes? 

If this is a PPL test requirement how does one take this test and convince the DPE  that this is an unsafe maneuver in this plane and it is better wisdom that we don't do it? 

 

Like so many things in aviation its not unsafe as long as its done responsibly, not slipping at to low an airspeed nor slipping in a way to unport a low tank. Its definitely something to be aware of the limitations but not to say one should never slip. You'll still find slipping more effective and precise to make a short approach than your speed brakes and a very powerful too to aid your precision when making an emergency (or simulated emergency) power off landing. i.e. a skill which should be learned and practiced responsibility - not feared IMO.

Fully agree with kortopates. A slip on final is no different than the slip (cross control) required for a crosswind landing. If slips were an issue then the POH would also state so and have some limitation on them. There is no limitation for crosswind landings except for stating that 13 kts is maximum "demonstrated". That means that 13 kts is not a limit. Besides, when slipping for loss of altitude one would normally drop the nose some to help unload the wing and maintain airspeed well above any stall. I have done slips in J's, K's, M's and my current R model, often with full rudder deflection.  No issues at all. I have tried to slip at maneuvering and cruise speeds and it is practically impossible. 

[carusoam]

Full flaps and crossed controls and Long Bodies...

To get the eclipsed /blanketed effects....

So I hear...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

I hope so I slip mine all the time. Get better atc handling when I can give atc 130knots on final with the jets then slip down to gear speed. Don’t walk around with your toolbox 1/2 full. 
 

-Robert 

[RobertGary1]

On 5/18/2020 at 6:43 PM, MikeOH said:

So, what's the Seminole's SEL ROC?

Curious how exciting a missed on a for real minimums ILS might have been on one engine

You would never do that. I’d you’re single engine in a light twin you either land on the runway or crash nearby. You don’t consider a go around in a light twin on 1 engine unless the situation is really just right. 
 

-Robert 

[RobertGary1]

On 5/17/2020 at 10:12 AM, PT20J said:

I'm not talking wing really low, full rudder deflection slips. If I need to do that kind of maneuver, I've screwed up and should come back for another try.

Or you kept your speed up with the 737’s to avoid a 20 minute hold until rush hour is over and now you need to drop the gear. A good slip is a tool in the tool bag. 
 

-Robert 

[Cruiser]

If I recall correctly the Mooney issue with slips is when slow and full flaps extended you lose airflow over the elevator. Not good close to the ground. 

[steingar]

Heavens No!  The airplane will immediately catch fire, fall out of the sky and be consumed by demons.  And you don't even want to think about touch and goes!