RPM Restrictions

[rbridges]

It shouldn't be. You should have the same placard as John - no continuous operation between 2000-2350. Where are you getting the placard you claim to have? If it's from the Mooney POH or Operation Manual, I believe they changed that limit.

Just for the record, let's look it up ourselves, shall we? Follow this link: (from FAA Website)

http://rgl.faa.gov/R...$FILE/P-920.pdf

This is the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the propeller. Go almost all the way to the end of the TCDS (page 8 of 13), and you will find a find a paragraph called "Note 9." This shows the propeller/engine combinations that are approved, and any placards that apply to that propeller/engine combination. These placards are applicable on your Mooney, Piper, homebuilt, golf cart, you name it. If those propellers are used on those engines, those limits apply.

Your prop will appear on page 9 of 13. You should be operating an HC-C2YK or HC-C2YK propeller with F7666(A)-2 blades. Find your prop model in the first column, then the blade in the second (note that the -2 is missing, but that's not important right now). Find your engine in the third column (it's the fourth set of engines from the top on page 9 of 13). Read the placard in column 6:

"Avoid continuous operation between 2000 and 2350 RPM."

That's all there is to it.

thanks, but I'm not seeing a 100% match.

Model # HC-C2YK-1BF

Blade Model # F7666A-2

Engine O-360-A1D

I'm guessing 2000-2250, but I'm not sure. Also, what does "continuous" mean?

[Hank]

I don't know the numbers for my prop, but it's a 3-blade Hartzell on an O-360. The tach is red-striped from 2000-2250, and there's a placard against "continuous operation" under 15". I don't recall the wording, but there's a picture of it in this thread.

There has been much discussion about what 'continuous operation' is, with some afraid to run there for 2 whole minutes in the pattern. Personally, I don't watch MP from downwind to taxi, just out the windows with glances at Altimeter and Airspeed, which are not on the other side of the panel.

[carusoam]

Kevin,

The factory support is greatly appreciated. I feal better, while waiting for my new prop to be constructed. Hartzell has a personality!

See if you can see my order with the NJ address?

PM has been sent to you with additional info...

Best regards,

-a-

[Kevin]

Hank:

Continuous means just that, continuous. "two minutes in the pattern" is continuous.

You can "pass thru" the placarded range, but you can't operate there. Period.

[ragedracer1977]

On 12/10/2012 at 0:52 PM, Kevin said:

Hank:

 

Continuous means just that, continuous. "two minutes in the pattern" is continuous.

 

You can "pass thru" the placarded range, but you can't operate there. Period.

Yes, I'm bumping an old thread with the same question.  How do we determine the definition of continuous, since it comes up a lot.  Many electric fuel pumps state to avoid continuous operation, yet they are perfectly safe (and required!) to run for our entire take off and landing sequence.  How is a pilot to determine the proper definition of continuous when there doesn't seem to be one?

[outermarker]

In true FAA fashion, I tried to find the prop information in this thread. Using the "new" site I have now lost 30 mins of my life I will never get back and feel so frustrated that I want to scream! Can someone take the hyperlink on the first page and update it to the current FAA website? I have nothing good to say at the moment so I had better stop now and breathe and go for a walk in the cold.

[MikeOH]

Search:

https://drs.faa.gov/browse/TCDSMODEL/doctypeDetails?Status=Current&TC Holder=Mooney Aircraft Corporation&TC Holder=Mooney International Corporation

Mooney TCDS:

https://drs.faa.gov/browse/excelExternalWindow/6EA0F05ECCA8304486258305006833CF.0001

[outermarker]

THANK YOU Mike! 

Take a look at my tach. It's marked from 2100-2350. I have an 65'E, IO360 A1A, Blade design F7666A-2, prop model HC-C2yk-1BF. If I have read correctly, and I hope not, the tach should be marked from 2000-2350. I don't want to lose another 100 rpm!

[takair]

1 hour ago, outermarker said:

THANK YOU Mike! 

Take a look at my tach. It's marked from 2100-2350. I have an 65'E, IO360 A1A, Balde design F7666A-2, prop model HC-C2yk-1BF. If I have read correctly, and I hope not, the tach should be marked from 2000-2350. I don't want to lose another 100 rpm!

At one point there was a discrepancy between the TCDS and what I believe was an AD.  My 1964 is now marked 2000-2350. The tach was originally marked 2100.  
 

Edit….see below…still confusion.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, outermarker said:

In true FAA fashion, I tried to find the prop information in this thread. Using the "new" site I have now lost 30 mins of my life I will never get back and feel so frustrated that I want to scream! Can someone take the hyperlink on the first page and update it to the current FAA website? I have nothing good to say at the moment so I had better stop now and breathe and go for a walk in the cold.

The propeller type certificate also has information concerning RPM restrictions for propeller, blade model number when paired with certain engines.

https://drs.faa.gov/browse/TCDSMODEL/doctypeDetails?modalOpened=true

[takair]

I’m totally confused now.  A few years ago I went through this investigation and found the discrepancy between this AD…https://drs.faa.gov/browse/ADFRAWD/doctypeDetails?modalOpened=true and the TCDS.  I believe the TCDS indicated 2000-2350, the AD indicates 2100-2350.  I pointed it out to Mooney and may have called the FSDO.  I remarked the tach to match the TCDS.  NOW I see the the TCDS and the AD match at 2100-2350, so it appears that the right value is 2100-2350.  Could not open Docs link, but worth a look.  
 

And….I think the FAA took a step backwards with the new library.  The AD search in particular will drop ADs if you don’t check off the right combination of search criteria.  

[Ragsf15e]

Does anyone actually intend to “continuously” run at 2000 rpm anyway?

[takair]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

Does anyone actually intend to “continuously” run at 2000 rpm anyway?

I don’t see it as a major operational issue, just one of those things that drives me crazy….

[takair]

Think I got it sorted out again, but it certainly leaves an IA questioning the right placarding.  AD 65-12-03 called for 2100-2350.  The Mooney TCDS also reflects 2100-2350.  Then Hartzell AD 77-12-06 R2 came out and expanded the range to 2000-2350.  AD 2002-09-08 clarifies this further.  In 2006 it looks like some Piper folks had the same issue and asked for clarification.  Clarification came in the form of SAIB CE-06-62, which references the M20E and F.  So, this leads me to believe the more correct restriction is 2000-2350.

[Ragsf15e]

33 minutes ago, takair said:

I don’t see it as a major operational issue, just one of those things that drives me crazy….

Oh, yeah, I have those too… and they drive me crazy!

[MikeOH]

I have an Horizon tach, so a little red light comes on when I enter the 'Forbidden Zone'...only time it happens is when I'm on downwind at low power.  I try to bump up power to get back to 2350 rpm but I don't freak out about it...plenty of things drive me crazy but this isn't one of them

[outermarker]

Nice discussion, especially when considering an upgrade in technology. It is disappointing to lose that range of rpm. I actually thought “continuous operation” was only at higher manifold settings when higher stresses are being placed on the engine. I was taught to keep the rpm up when making a long decent to keep the temps up. The restricted range is where I would be with other aircraft.

[MikeOH]

7 minutes ago, outermarker said:

 It is disappointing to lose that range of rpm.

Really???

I've had my F for 5 years and have NEVER had need to operate below 2400 rpm, and other than the slight annoyance on downwind I described earlier this has been a complete non-issue for me.

[Ragsf15e]

25 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Really???

I've had my F for 5 years and have NEVER had need to operate below 2400 rpm, and other than the slight annoyance on downwind I described earlier this has been a complete non-issue for me.

I notice it on final and during precision instrument approaches, but I also don’t worry about it because those segments of flight don’t seem continuous to me.

[MikeOH]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

I notice it on final and during precision instrument approaches, but I also don’t worry about it because those segments of flight don’t seem continuous to me.

Try more flap

[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

Try more flap

Yeah, that’s the issue on instrument approach.  I like gear and half flaps which means ~2300 rpm to hold 90mph.  I guess I could either go with gear up and no flaps with 2000rpm or gear, full flaps and slip down the ils with 2400rpm? 

[MikeOH]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah, that’s the issue on instrument approach.  I like gear and half flaps which means ~2300 rpm to hold 90mph.  I guess I could either go with gear up and no flaps with 2000rpm or gear, full flaps and slip down the ils with 2400rpm? 

Ah, I too run half flaps but usually just over 2350 rpm which gives me 100 mph (still A).

Gee, I'll have to consider that slipping down the ILS idea <sarcasm>

[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

Ah, I too run half flaps but usually just over 2350 rpm which gives me 100 mph (still A).

Gee, I'll have to consider that slipping down the ILS idea <sarcasm>

I’ve got a 3 blade speed brake, maybe that’s the difference?  I’ll try 100mph and see if she’ll hold 100mph at 2351?

[MikeOH]

Just now, Ragsf15e said:

I’ve got a 3 blade speed brake, maybe that’s the difference?  I’ll try 100mph and see if she’ll hold 100mph at 2351?

That well could be; I have a two blade prop.

[Hank]

47 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’ve got a 3 blade speed brake, maybe that’s the difference?  I’ll try 100mph and see if she’ll hold 100mph at 2351?

Ain't they great? In my C, the caution zone is 2000-2250, and I sometimes come down the approach at 2300. I keep whatever my cruise RPM was, unless ATC levels me off for a while, then I reset MP & RPM to my Key Number and hold that RPM as long as possible.

Because at some point, as you reduce MP and slow to Vf = 125 mph and Vg = 120 mph, then slow towards 90 knots = 104 mph, throttle gets low enough that the governor is on the stops and RPM decays.