Thermawing on a Mooney?

[orionflt]

Just spoke to the company, and YES it is possible that a Thermwing could be available for the Mooney!! If theres anyone else besides me that would like to add this to their Mooney ( I think it would require you having two alternators in your plane) Let me know and I can let them know how many initial orders they might expect if they decide to apply for an STC. Here's the link if anyone needs to see it.

 

http://www.kellyaerospace.com/thermawing-aircraft-deice.html

We have been putting the Thermwing on the Lancair Evolution and I haven't seen an installation that looks smooth (to the companies credit they are working on new installation techniques), I know they have tried them on other aircraft and I am hoping installation on a metal wing looks better. as for operation they seem to work well from the current feed back I have been getting. as stated above they do need their own power source due to the heavy electrical draw. 

[JohnB]

Good to know Orion. Question for you since you install them, about how much does the entire system weigh once installed?

[JohnB]

How much?

I don't know, but I expect him to get back to me soon and I will ask.

[orionflt]

I do not actually install them, there are a couple of shops around the country that do, RDD in oregon does the Lancair installs and I think they run around 27-30K for the install and around 50lbs in loss of useful load. I am sure this could be installed with a field approval but the FAA will probably want to take a close look at the data before signing off on it. if you want to make the investment you my be able to work with the manufacturer to help them get an STC for the mooney model, same wing on so many versions and the factory starting production again it would make economic sense.

 

Brian 

[Mooneymite]

Rain X won't help prevent icing. Several years back I was flying a bizjet that had a coating failure of the water shedding coating that is applied to the aircraft's glass windshields to keep rain from "smearing" and making the windshield impossible to see through. (Think of a VERY expensive permanent Rain-X application.) Gulfstream had us apply Rain-X until they could get a team out to reapply the permanent coating. For the two weeks that I flew the airplane with Rain-X, you would still get the normal amount of ice accumulation on the windscreen during icing encounters.

Really?  That's interesting.

 

Our company's MEL won't allow us to fly the jet in IMC if the coating is degraded.  Do you work under an MEL?  Does the Gulfstream MEL provide relief using RainX?

[carusoam]

Is that lancair a turboprop version?

Best regards,

-a-

[DaV8or]

Very promising tech. Still, it seems you still need to deal with the prop and the windshield. This means you still need to carry some other tech on board as well, no?

[carusoam]

Prop can be electric anti ice as well...

A second engine may be required to drive a big alternator.

Best regards,

-a-

[orionflt]

most of the Evo's are turboprop, there are 2 out there with lycoming EI2 piston engines installed. the first one is the prototype with Lycomings prototype engine, the second is has just been finished and as of last week was being test flown. I am not sure if it made it down to sun N fun but the goal was to put it on display.

[Marauder]

Is that lancair a turboprop version?

Best regards,

-a-

 

most of the Evo's are turboprop, there are 2 out there with lycoming EI2 piston engines installed. the first one is the prototype with Lycomings prototype engine, the second is has just been finished and as of last week was being test flown. I am not sure if it made it down to sun N fun but the goal was to put it on display.

 

Brian -- was that the Evo we saw at Lancaster?

[orionflt]

Yes, That is the one Lancair has flown all over the world, It is also the first one to have the termawing installed...actually RDD calls it Therm X (they were involved with the development)

[M016576]

Is this is a FIKI system? I can't find any mention of FIKI.... What are the rules regarding FIKI cert. on an experimental aircraft like a lancair? If this system would require FIKI cert, plus the cost to get a mooney STC, could double the current price. But that would still make it less than a TKS install, and no messy (and heavy) fluid.... Only good could come of this!

[carusoam]

The challenge is in the wording...

I believe FIKI is shortened version of: certified for flight into known icing conditions...

If the plane is not certified, would you need the sub-systems to be certified...?

You would prefer the bells and whistles of the FIKI system, prop, window heater, inspection lights, wing surfaces, dual this and that...

I can't imagine building a plane that large or complex. First build the experience.... Then build the plane...

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

The challenge is in the wording...

I believe FIKI is shortened version of: certified for flight into known icing conditions...

If the plane is not certified, would you need the sub-systems to be certified...?

You would prefer the bells and whistles of the FIKI system, prop, window heater, inspection lights, wing surfaces, dual this and that...

I can't imagine building a plane that large or complex. First build the experience.... Then build the plane...

Best regards,

-a-

Like all de-ice systems, the wording and regulations all seem somewhat open to interpretation, that's for sure. Ultimately best judgement rules the day... But... There sure is a big up charge for the certification paperwork on any certificated system for an aircraft...

[carusoam]

Self-certified...?

Best of both worlds...

The builder is responsible to make the subsystem work the same as the certified version.

I'm making this up as I go along...

-a-

[JohnB]

Ok I have some great questions to ask the company when I get a call back sometime after Sun & Fun after reading these forum posts, thanks everyone.

 

1. Approximate cost

2. Will the company apply for flight into known ice and/or inadvertent ice flight certification and the incremental cost if we wanted a FIKI certification if its even possible.

3. What about the windshield, will it require some other tech to protect it?

4. Weight of system

 

Did I leave out anything?

 

Im still liking the possibility of Mooney getting an STC for this as this system appears to be an actual de-icing system and not an anti ice formation as TKS fluid would be for most types of icing encounters, and this hopefully would be lighter than 100 lbs.

[orionflt]

by installing this system you do not automatically become FIKI certified. this system in lancairs and many of the other aircraft it has been installed on is for the inadvertent icing that you might run into along your route of flight. could it be FIKI certified...yes it could but that is a FAA process requiring engineering data to be gathered for the individual model of aircraft requesting certification, and flight test to be performed. the whole process is long and expensive for very little gain. on a side note the FAA recently issued an AD prohibiting some of the cessna 300 and 400 series aircraft that were thought to be FIKI certified from flying into known icing.

 

Brian 

[JohnB]

Very helpful Brian, thanks! You mentioned that sometimes the install isn't smooth on a Lancair. Is that like a bubble or ridge underneath the surface? How common is this and would the imperfections be large enough to be a potential issue on our Mooneys affecting our laminar flow? Now I'm wondering if this would even work on my mooney with stall strips on the leading edge. Also, I'm curious if you happen to know about how much the system on the Lancair weighs. Thank you sir!

John

[orionflt]

it's more just a bubbling or unevenness, nothing airflow affecting,  just cosmetic....most cases barley noticeable if you are not up close and taking a good look, but when I am working on Lancairs I work with a perfectionist and every detail matters to him (he is also the CEO of Lancair), also on the lancairs they are painting them to try to blend in the install. as for use on the Mooneys I think it will work great for the later model money where a second alternator can easily be installed. older birds like mine would be more difficult due to the lack of room for the second alternator. I believe the added weight is just under 50 lbs unless you add prop and windshield deice, I do not know those numbers off the top of my head. the windshield deice is a glycol system. if your down at sun n fun you can run by the lancair booth to get a look at the system. you will also love just looking at the aircraft on display, it is hard to believe they ate a kit.

[Ned Gravel]

Brian:

 

Doesn't GAMI have a "supplenator" kit one can install in place of the vacuum pump when the last of the steam gauges come out?  Don't know its generating specs, but I wonder if that would be good enough.

[orionflt]

No Ned,

that works as a back up but it cannot handle the load that the deice would require. the kit that gets installed has an alternator dedicated for the deice system and it will put out up to 70Vdc to handle the deicing requirements.

 

Brian 

[BorealOne]

Dunno guys - I'm pretty sold on TKS. Therma-wing doesn't sound like a step forward--I think of it like taking 60 lbs out of the TKS tank (which we don't have to carry if we don't need it) and spreading it along the wing where it will be there 365 days a year. Sure, it won't run dry, but I can't imagine a scenario where one would knowingly carry on in continuous icing - even the FIKI systems on the heavy metal are used to get above or below the icing layer, not plow along in it - and that goes double for our light singles.

[aaronk25]

Now if 50k would put a turbo and de-ice on my J.... I'd keep it forever!!!!! Good thread guys very interesting!

[JohnB]

I'm now thinking this wouldnt work on my Bravo, even though I already have two alternators, I also have a taxi and landing light as well as stall strip, vortex generator on the leading edges of my wings. I would think this system would have to cover all of that up to be effective, hmmm. Rats, and I was soo looking forward to this as I saw this type of de icing in action on a commercial jet, and I only dreamed of if we could only get that for GA! And someone has manufactured it!

[Ned Gravel]

I would stick with TKS if I had an Ovation with all the goodies too.  But like Aaron and John, I dream of possibilities.

 

When Ute and I were in Quakertown, PA, last year, Brian was hosting us at a little BBQ and his friend (and CEO of Lancair) came back from Reno in this.  It has all the bells and whistles, probably sucks up 30 gph to fly at 30,000' and also probably has heavy duty de-icing kit of some type or other.  A very capable aircraft, but out of my price range, as is a TKS equipped long body Mooney.