Thermawing on a Mooney?

[davidsguerra]

http://www.kellyaerospace.com/thermalsystems/thermawing_aircraft_deice.html

interesting concept for deicing. any chance it would work on a mooney?

[m20flyer]

Dunno. I sent them an email.

[johnbkeck]

Hello,

I talked to a real nice guy at the Willoughby, OH facility who said he worked on the Screaming Eagle STC in IN. He said that the 201 would be a challenge because it would need a 70 or so amp alternator with no where to mount on the 4 cyl Lycoming. I think he said it would be very popular on Mooneys that can accommodate a second alternator.

Anyone think it would be possible for Tornado Alley to modify STC for Cardinal Cruiser to 201????

John

[Lood]

The replacement alternators from Plane Power are 70 amp IIRC.

[johnbkeck]

I meant to say it needs a second power source alternator. On my second question....I didn't say the Cardinal Cruiser STC from Tornado Alley was a turbo-normalizer. Just wondering how expensive it would be to bring out a 201 TN system.

John

[jlunseth]

I looked through the website and did not see the term FIKI anywhere. Is there protection for the windshield and horizontal stabilizer, didn't see that either. A full FIKI system looks like it is a ways away, if even possible.

[John Pleisse]

Wasn't this the same system Cessna tried on the Corvalis with poor results? IMHO the 201 is not only underpowered for a second alternator, but also to climb from or maintain altitude in an icing encounter. Rocket or a Bravo? I'd consider TKS and take the high road on a certified system.

[Steve Dawson]

I read of an experimental aircraft (Lancair) that used this system with success in some severe icing. According to their website they're currently STC'd for the Corvalis and soon the Cirrus however they don't mention if it's FIKI or inadvertant only.

The altenator needs to be a 7500 watt / 70 amp system and independent of the existing electrical charging system. Just wondering if you replaced the instruments that needed the vacuum pump to all electric is there an altenator that would fit where the pump is on the IO 360 ?

I've been looking at aircraft that are FIKI and at the $48,000 that TKS wants now to retrofit an Ovation or Bravo it leaves open more viable options. I believe that the Thermawing is somewhere around $20,000 installed.

[DaV8or]

I meant to say it needs a second power source alternator. On my second question....I didn't say the Cardinal Cruiser STC from Tornado Alley was a turbo-normalizer. Just wondering how expensive it would be to bring out a 201 TN system.

John

I spoke with the Tornado Alley folks on Saturday at the AOPA Summit about this very thing. It ain't gunna happen. The expense to get it certified is so high, they would have to sell each kit for like $80k and even at that, they would need a serious commitment from a sizeable number of folks before they would do anything. The only reason they have the Cardinal STC is, they bought the STC from somebody else for pennies on the dollar. Since they've owned it, I think he said they have sold 12. In addition, he said the injection system used on the 4 banger Lycomings is troublesome when used with a turbo and hard to modify. Basically, when people see the price tag, they choke and buy a 231, or 252 instead.

They did say that if there were enough interest for their turbos on the big bore Mooneys, that that would be very possible, as most of the kit they have now for Bonanzas would swap right over to a Mooney. Again, all that would take would be enough serious buyers to pony up.

[KSMooniac]

And it is a shame IMO that Mooney developed the Acclaim they way they did firewall-forward when they could've partnered with TAT and come up with a far superior system, and probably cheaper and quicker to boot. If there was a TAT TN-kit for the Ovation or Eagle, I expect it would blow away an Acclaim in all aspects of performance, especially efficiency.

[davidsguerra]

I had emailed Kelly aerospace and the reply i got was that he was interested in getting it certified for Mooneys since he flew one himself. I would rather have an extra alternator than 60 lbs of liquid that i have to replace periodically.

[KSMooniac]

It will be interesting to see if they pursue an STC for this for our planes that continue to decline in value... I hope they do, but am not counting on it. Nor am I planning to spend $40+k on a TKS system either...

Down the road I'm dreaming of a vacuum-free airplane with a PFD and backup elec. AI with it's own battery backup. That would leave an accessory pad free to spin another alternator...

[aviatoreb]

And it is a shame IMO that Mooney developed the Acclaim they way they did firewall-forward when they could've partnered with TAT and come up with a far superior system, and probably cheaper and quicker to boot. If there was a TAT TN-kit for the Ovation or Eagle, I expect it would blow away an Acclaim in all aspects of performance, especially efficiency.

That would be quite a setup. Those Tornado turbo normalized IO550's in the Bonanza's - and the Cirrus - essentially the same engine - they are quite happy running LOP at 85% power. That would really make an Ovation or Eagle move at altitude. Probably faster cruise than an Acclaim - or can an Acclaim already do that trick? I am certainly not willing to give that a try in my rocket as the Tit becomes the limiting factor if I ever try LOP at even >72%. I can move out for sure if I pour a lot of fuel into those cylinders....but an 85% powered Ovation would be something to behold.

[jetdriven]

That would be quite a setup. Those Tornado turbo normalized IO550's in the Bonanza's - and the Cirrus - essentially the same engine - they are quite happy running LOP at 85% power. That would really make an Ovation or Eagle move at altitude. Probably faster cruise than an Acclaim - or can an Acclaim already do that trick? I am certainly not willing to give that a try in my rocket as the Tit becomes the limiting factor if I ever try LOP at even >72%. I can move out for sure if I pour a lot of fuel into those cylinders....but an 85% powered Ovation would be something to behold.

Eric, I think the secret to the high percent power turbo Bonanzas is the TN system. It is intercooled and produces cool, sea-level air to the engine. It happily runs at even 95% power at 17,000 feet with 330 CHTs, delivering a 200 knot V-tail on 16 GPH. The engine is only running at 30" of manifold pressure and has the high compression ratio. Its an awesome setup.

[Ned Gravel]

If I wasn't so concerned about the potential to poison the environment, I would support the use of superhydrophobic compounds that prevent water (in all its forms) from adhering to any surface. See the page from one of the developers of this technology at http://www.neverwet.com/.

Once a month application and even dirt wouldn't stick to the airframe. No more greasy belly??

[bd32322]

If I wasn't so concerned about the potential to poison the environment, I would support the use of superhydrophobic compounds that prevent water (in all its forms) from adhering to any surface. See the page from one of the developers of this technology at http://www.neverwet.com/.

Once a month application and even dirt wouldn't stick to the airframe. No more greasy belly??

I saw this a while back on the EAA site. If it is safe on aluminium, i wouldn't mind givint it a try. Even just to prevent the bug splatter cleanup on my 36 feet of wing!

[AndyFromCB]

The issue with this system is and has always been run back. It simply does not get hot enough to vaporize water unlike a hot wing, so as it brakes the ice, some water always runs back. Even with the two zones, just a little bit each time it goes thru a shedding cycle, so you end up with ice farther down the wing in the boundry layer. Fellow I know had it on his Lancair IV-P, took it off and put TKS on. I get it, 60lb is a lot of weight, but for our puny little singles, TKS can't be beat.

Now the system that looks very promising is what they are putting in on Kestrel turboprop.

[Piloto]

I am still waiting for hydrophobic de-icing coatings. No power or fluid required.

José

[M016576]

I am still waiting for hydrophobic de-icing coatings. No power or fluid required.

José

+1

[carusoam]

José,

RainX???

Keeps water from sticking to my car's windshield. I haven't tried it in icing conditions though...

Requires similar effort to applying wax. Wipe on, let dry, wipe off excess.

It has an alcohol base, maybe challenging to some paint surfaces.

-a-

[Piloto]

José,

RainX???

Keeps water from sticking to my car's windshield. I haven't tried it in icing conditions though...

Requires similar effort to applying wax. Wipe on, let dry, wipe off excess.

It has an alcohol base, maybe challenging to some paint surfaces.

-a-

Thanks for the tip. I will give it a try.

José

[carusoam]

Just be careful of the chemistry. It is made for glass. I don't know the effects on paint or plastics...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ned Gravel]

Superhydrophobic compounds are probably very toxic. Which is sad, because they would be great.

[carusoam]

The RainX product was touted as a Teflon in a solvent. Not terribly toxic.

The Teflon itself is stable and inert, the solvent is minimal in quantity. Watching the rain drops bead up and run back is priceless.

Keep in mind that this is automotive experience on a glass windshield...

Be cautious on using this product on paint and polymer surfaces such as windshields.

Test it on an acrylic sheet first....and other painted aluminum sheet. Then test it on non aviation freezing conditions.

It's a nice idea if it can be executed in an aviation safe way...

It lasts for a few months or until the windshield wipers are used...

Again, these are untested ideas, but an interesting place to start.

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Edgar is RainX available in Canada?

-a-