Thermawing on a Mooney?

[aviatoreb]

I'm now thinking this wouldnt work on my Bravo, even though I already have two alternators, I also have a taxi and landing light as well as stall strip, vortex generator on the leading edges of my wings. I would think this system would have to cover all of that up to be effective, hmmm. Rats, and I was soo looking forward to this as I saw this type of de icing in action on a commercial jet, and I only dreamed of if we could only get that for GA! And someone has manufactured it!

 

I have VGs and TKS and they play together well.

[Mark Pavinich]

I called Kelly Aerospace (Therma Wing)  

I asked them about icing on the M20J.  The guy owns a M20J and would like Therma Wing to be possible on a M20J; however, the issue is NO room to install the 2nd alternator. 

So at first, I was :

Our J models or prior just do not have the room.  Now let's remove all the other possible variables that members may say about our beloved M20J model not having enough power to climb and operate at higher altitudes.   

Then I started thinking  

We know that several general aviation aircraft are equipped with some form of anti-icing or dicing equipment, but may not be FIKI (Flight Into Known Icing Conditions).

So for the person / aircraft / M20J that wanted the NON-FIKI option just to buy time, give an out, or just as a precautionary, why not?  

I know several other aircraft that the owner opted to install TKS or some other vendor's system(s), but it is not FIKI certified.  As we know , TKS and other similar systems offer both FIKI certified and NON certified icing countermeasures. 

Let's make the money scenario simple, either the person wants to spend the $$$ (the money) regardless if it makes sense to you or not. The objective of this question is to determine if Therma Wing or something other than TKS is possible for a M20J.

Yes, I know the M20J would need a higher amp / volt alternator.  Yes, all of my equipment is 28v.

Hmm do I hear something thinking of pneumatic -- don't go there :-) 

[peevee]

why not remove the vac pump and add an alternator there?

[1964-M20E]

12 minutes ago, peevee said:

why not remove the vac pump and add an alternator there?

I don't think you can get the current levels on the accessory pad mounted alternators.  I think they are only good for maybe 20A max but I could be wrong.  I think these alternators are primarily for backup if you loose the main so you can get to an airport safely operating necessary avionics and lights.

 

Although yes  if the price was reasonable some type of emergency icing equipment would be nice.  It would make flying in IMC a little less daunting at times.  I think a boot type would probably be the best IMHO.

How about a wing heater that feeds off of the muffler shroud piped into the leading edge of the wings not sure if you could get enough BTUs to do any good though.

 

 

 

 

[peevee]

why aren't there any K or newer with boots? It can't be that complicated, can it?

[carusoam]

Do they have the thermawing for aluminum wings?

Last I saw this electric system was on plastic planes?

Best regards,

-a-

[Mark Pavinich]

Yes, thermawing exist for metal wings

I hate to say the B and C word, but Beechcraft and Cessna aircraft are / can be / have been equipped with thermawing. 

The Mooney Bravo and Oviation series are supposed to be thermawing capable as well.  

Basically, I think it comes down to alternator real esate and aircraft power source capabilities.

[peevee]

9 minutes ago, Mark Pavinich said:

Yes, thermawing exist for metal wings

I hate to say the B and C word, but Beechcraft and Cessna aircraft are / can be / have been equipped with thermawing. 

The Mooney Bravo and Oviation series are supposed to be thermawing capable as well.  

Basically, I think it comes down to alternator real esate and aircraft power source capabilities.

I'm still not sure why you couldn't run the airplane off a 20 or 30 amp accessory drive alternator and run the biggest alternator you can find in the factory spot. Between the two I would think you'd have enough power for inadvertent protection. Maybe there's room on the tsio-520 to drive a second alternator, I'm not sure about that either.

[carusoam]

What are the electrical requirements for the The TW system?

Boots and laminar wings have not made a good match yet...

The TKS system has been pretty good.  The down side has been maintenance issues from just turning it on to leaking fittings to parts departing the plane.  And that pesky loss of a few knots in cruise...

How much does the TW system alter the leading edge of the laminar flow wing? Is it thin like plastic wraps used for graphics?

- the boots seem to be too bulky

- TKS alters airflow enough to slow the plane down slightly...

 

Just questions that come to mind...

Best regards,

-a-

[peevee]

I think I read 70 amps.

There are other systems in development that cycle different areas of the strips so it's not such a huge draw. Perhaps those show potential.

[exM20K]

19 hours ago, peevee said:

why aren't there any K or newer with boots? It can't be that complicated, can it?

The guy who was promoting the Rocket conversions in the Midwest and Northeast during the late 90's (can't remember his name - last name started with an "E") had boots on his plane, so it has been done.

-dan

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, exM20K said:

The guy who was promoting the Rocket conversions in the Midwest and Northeast during the late 90's (can't remember his name - last name started with an "E") had boots on his plane, so it has been done.

-dan

No kidding!  Must have been a field approval.

[peevee]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

No kidding!  Must have been a field approval.

I'm game

it probably wouldn't be any cheaper than just paying CAV 45k to do TKS I bet.

[aviatoreb]

21 minutes ago, peevee said:

I'm game

it probably wouldn't be any cheaper than just paying CAV 45k to do TKS I bet.

Yeah - I bet it would be in the same price range, and a lot less hassle to pay CAV what they are asking.

[tigers2007]

I'm thinking that a Graupner Turbine (r/c) with a gearbox could spin an alternator. Basically a micro APU. Mount it in the aft hell hole. How much would you spend for your own APU?


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[peevee]

44 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

I'm thinking that a Graupner Turbine (r/c) with a gearbox could spin an alternator. Basically a micro APU. Mount it in the aft hell hole. How much would you spend for your own APU?


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Just get a rat or adg and pop it out of the cowl to power the anti ice when engaged.

[bradp]

Would the rat have a hot prop?


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[peevee]

Nah. Just hook it up to the pilot relief tube and use the urine to deice

[tigers2007]

I just did some backwoods math and a toy gas turbine produces 0.6HP at 1,900RPM (when paired with a 100:1 gearbox). That is only 440 Watts. Let's guess 60% efficiency then that will only get us 19Amps at 14V. So this is plausible but with a slightly bigger turbine. I don't have pricing yet but a certified micro APU will be $15,000 for the first ten investors. I accept personal cheques.


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[amillet]

Do only Britts & Cannucks need applying? (cheques)

[Alain B]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

What are the electrical requirements for the The TW system?

Boots and laminar wings have not made a good match yet...

The TKS system has been pretty good.  The down side has been maintenance issues from just turning it on to leaking fittings to parts departing the plane.  And that pesky loss of a few knots in cruise...

How much does the TW system alter the leading edge of the laminar flow wing? Is it thin like plastic wraps used for graphics?

- the boots seem to be too bulky

- TKS alters airflow enough to slow the plane down slightly...

 

Just questions that come to mind...

Best regards,

-a-

I have flown all three : boots , therma wing and TKS . IMHO , TKS is the most efficient and clean up the wing much better , however TKS fluid is not unlimited , that is the main Issue . At one time , they were making Twin Otter with Therma wing , most likely it was a De Havilland in-house system , all the planes that i know  who had Therma wing were retrofitted over time with boots . The latest Twin Otter who are produced in BC come with boots now . I had never seen someone who was happy with Therma wing , look what had happened to the Cessna TTX . 

[Mark Pavinich]

What happen to the Cessna TTX?

[AndyFromCB]

Quite frankly the future of deicing is piezo electric. It already works on many corporate jets, mostly for tail deicing. Apply couple of thousand Gs to ice over a few micrometers and it just shutters. 

The TW system is flawed and has been from the start. There just is not enough power to generate heat quickly enough to avoid some runback. So slowly, over time, with each shed cycle you end up with ice bridge where you want it least. A system like this has to heat fast enough to vaporize the moisture on each shed cycle, TW simply does not do it.

As to boots, they are pretty useless on our light piston powered aircraft. The work decent on turboprop equipment. They simply do not function well when you need them the most, which is on climb (although that fairly easy to overcome if the ice band altitudes are well know and not very thick, by zoom climbing) but there is not much that can be done on approach. Maintaining 140knots, a speed where boots really start to shine down to 200' is not an option is a piston single, it's not even a good option in a turboprop single, but most of them have considerably more advanced flap system where the difference between full flaps and no flap approach speeds can be as much as 30knots, so 150 on final down to 200' is quite doable in a TBM, you can slow down 40knots in half mile with the giant paddle up front, cross the numbers at 110 and force the landing and go into reverse. It still gets rather squirly because your rudder just simply quits working and if there is ice in the clouds, there is a good chance there is snow/ice on the runway and you need your rudder the most. Boots really need speed to shed well. I've spend enough time in a King Air series aircraft over the years to realize that even when maintaining good ice penetration speed, you still end up with a ton of ice unless the boots get coated before pretty much every flight with a ice de-bonding agent. It's a none issue on a King Air as you'd pretty much would have to continuously fly thru SLD in order to build up enough ice to bring that aircraft down. It's an old, fat airfoil that really doesn't much care what's on the leading edge. I bet a KA would take off with no issue with 2x4s mounted to the leading edge.

TKS and a turbo is pretty much as good as it gets. Ask any Cessna Caravan pilot. The FedEx planes used to fall out of the sky due to icing all the time Caravans were booted. Once TKS replaced the boots, it became a non-issue. I'd take a FIKI TKS over any other system in a light plane. If you run into time limitations due to fluid usage, you're doing icing wrong.

My two cents from a guy that has considerably more back seat time in flying machines than left seat time.

Edited March 13, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[AndyFromCB]

57 minutes ago, Mark Pavinich said:

What happen to the Cessna TTX?

It got TKSed, ThermaWing got dropped because it didn't work.

[Mark Pavinich]

18 hours ago, AndyFromCB said:

It got TKSed, ThermaWing got dropped because it didn't work.

Thanks for the update