Rocket annual operating costs

[bd32322]

Could some rocket owners share some data on maintenance costs per year (annual and otherwise), please?

I am starting to look for a 252, rocket or bravo with tks. There are certainly more bravos with tks, but the rocket is certainly top on my list...

Thanks in advance

[David Mazer]

Other than the awful annual where I had to replace my engine and prop, annuals run $2,500 - $4,000. I also had a large initial maintenance issue with both the fuel tanks (reseal - $13,000) and the KFC 150 (also ended up about $13,000). After that, everything has been optional expense. Insurances is about $2,000 per year. Hangar expense is variable but Mooney's have long wings that require the large T hangars here. Other than that, what is there? Not much.

The engine, gasp, annual cost about $55,000 and the prop was about $3,000 if I remember correctly. The AI went out twice, $2,500 to rebuild, so I updated to the Aspen unit the second time, $5,000, hoping to at least avoid the third time around.

It is my understanding that a Bravo has higher maintenance cost, slower airspeed, higher initial price, higher resale, and a longer body. I personally prefer the 252 instrument panel to the Bravo (the Bravo is higher with less forward visibility). Rockets seem particularly under priced right now. I know of two that were purchased, had significant renovations and were still way less than what I have in mine purchased in 2006.

Does that help?

[aerobat95]

Is the 2500-4000 just the inspection??? or is that with some replacement parts??

[bd32322]

Other than the awful annual where I had to replace my engine and prop, annuals run $2,500 - $4,000. I also had a large initial maintenance issue with both the fuel tanks (reseal - $13,000) and the KFC 150 (also ended up about $13,000). After that, everything has been optional expense. Insurances is about $2,000 per year. Hangar expense is variable but Mooney's have long wings that require the large T hangars here. Other than that, what is there? Not much.

The engine, gasp, annual cost about $55,000 and the prop was about $3,000 if I remember correctly. The AI went out twice, $2,500 to rebuild, so I updated to the Aspen unit the second time, $5,000, hoping to at least avoid the third time around.

It is my understanding that a Bravo has higher maintenance cost, slower airspeed, higher initial price, higher resale, and a longer body. I personally prefer the 252 instrument panel to the Bravo (the Bravo is higher with less forward visibility). Rockets seem particularly under priced right now. I know of two that were purchased, had significant renovations and were still way less than what I have in mine purchased in 2006.

Does that help?

Thanks that helps, the annual cost is about the same as my current J, so thats encouraging. How about the turbo? Did that need to be overhauled and how much does that usually run?

[David Mazer]

The annual is all inclusive after parts and inspection. I haven't been using an MSC but the one at DAB is about the same basic cost.

The turbo was rebuilt with the engine. I didn't think it made sense to have a new engine and an old turbo.

[bd32322]

Another question i have is do the rocket engines typically make it to TBO? From the MAPA article the 252 engine seems to run somewhat hot with CHT slightly above 400. What do the rocket CHTs look like in cruise?

Thanks

[Z W]

My 252 engine runs right around 360-380 on the CHT at 75% power, leaned to peak TIT, for what that's worth. I do have to adjust the cowl flaps periodically to keep it in that range, but it has no problems running cool.

I'm sure a Rocket driver will chime in too.

[Parker_Woodruff]

My experience:

- I own a 1987 M20K, which I had converted to an Encore. It's a capable airplane and it is everything I want in an airplane. (ok, TKS would be nice).

Some notes:

- Get an airplane that's been flying. You don't want a 6 cylinder, turbocharged engine that's been sitting idle.

- People who get cheap with their M20K are going to give you a headache of a plane when you buy it. Take it to a MSC for pre-buy/annual. There are a significant amount of poorly cared-for airplanes sitting on the market.

Cost? On a Rocket, I'd budget $200/hour, all-inclusive, if you fly 120 hours per year. But the airframe quality is everything in this game.

Buy a plane from someone who has really cared about their airplane. That means get on the phone with some reputable MSCs and find one that they've been maintaining and know has been actively flying.

[bd32322]

My experience:

- I own a 1987 M20K, which I had converted to an Encore. It's a capable airplane and it is everything I want in an airplane. (ok, TKS would be nice).

Some notes:

- Get an airplane that's been flying. You don't want a 6 cylinder, turbocharged engine that's been sitting idle.

- People who get cheap with their M20K are going to give you a headache of a plane when you buy it. Take it to a MSC for pre-buy/annual. There are a significant amount of poorly cared-for airplanes sitting on the market.

Cost? On a Rocket, I'd budget $200/hour, all-inclusive, if you fly 120 hours per year. But the airframe quality is everything in this game.

Buy a plane from someone who has really cared about their airplane. That means get on the phone with some reputable MSCs and find one that they've been maintaining and know has been actively flying.

Great advice! I did look at a few 252s and rockets and they have all been sitting recently .. One 252 I did a pre-buy on had significant cylinder corrosion at just 200 SMOH..

[aviatoreb]

Another question i have is do the rocket engines typically make it to TBO? From the MAPA article the 252 engine seems to run somewhat hot with CHT slightly above 400. What do the rocket CHTs look like in cruise?

Thanks

I don't know if Rocket's typically make TBO. I hope so... I do know that our local regional airline Cape Air flies a large fleet of TSIO520's with almost the same accessories set, and they make TBO and as much as 1000 beyond regularly, but then they run 55% power almost all the time, and also they of course put a lot a lot of hours on each engine every year. And of course their baffling and such is entirely different.

I can say that my rocket engine runs very cool in cruise. 360CHT or cooler depending on OAT maybe even low 350s as hottest CHT, or even a lot lower if low power or LOP.

[David Mazer]

I believe my engine didn't make it to TBO, or at least closer to TBO, as a result of it sitting for an extended period of time at Coy Jacobs place (the infamous Mooney Mart). Despite my request to run the engine weekly, he let it sit for about 3 months without starting it at all. When it came back from his care it was using 2 qt oil/hr from about 1/4 qt/hr with good compressions fresh out of annual. When it was torn down the guys at Zephyr Hills felt that rust was the cause. Since then I always fly the plane, or at least run the engine, every week or so and use a dehumidifier in between. I also had the cylinders nickled during the rebuild and use Camgaurd at each oil change. Not that I'm paranoid about it or anything!

Above, Parker suggest an MSC and I agree that an IA with Mooney experience is better than one without it. I have found, though, that a number of IAs are available with long experience and attention to detail that doesn't just come from having the Mooney stamp of approval. And, while I don't believe Parker was directing his comment about poor maintenance towards me, with my life and the life of family and friends on the line, maintenance is not deferred or minimized on my plane. If the IA says it should be done, it is done. But, considering what was done to my airplane in the pre-buy to make it acceptable and the first two years after purchase, it was clear that my airplane was a victim of just such choices. Be careful on any plane you buy, Rocket, Bravo, or any M20, B, C, or P, you can get stuck with a real problem without the proper advice, experience, and knowledge. Okay, off my soap box.

[aviatoreb]

Other than the awful annual where I had to replace my engine and prop, annuals run $2,500 - $4,000. I also had a large initial maintenance issue with both the fuel tanks (reseal - $13,000) and the KFC 150 (also ended up about $13,000). After that, everything has been optional expense. Insurances is about $2,000 per year. Hangar expense is variable but Mooney's have long wings that require the large T hangars here. Other than that, what is there? Not much.

The engine, gasp, annual cost about $55,000 and the prop was about $3,000 if I remember correctly. The AI went out twice, $2,500 to rebuild, so I updated to the Aspen unit the second time, $5,000, hoping to at least avoid the third time around.

It is my understanding that a Bravo has higher maintenance cost, slower airspeed, higher initial price, higher resale, and a longer body. I personally prefer the 252 instrument panel to the Bravo (the Bravo is higher with less forward visibility). Rockets seem particularly under priced right now. I know of two that were purchased, had significant renovations and were still way less than what I have in mine purchased in 2006.

Does that help?

Except for a more expensive engine overhaul cost of the rocket's TSIO520 vs the two different original TSIO360 versions of the M20K, the 231 and 252 where the engines are still very expensive to overhaul, the rest of the airplane issues of a M20k rocket, 252, 231 or what not are all the same as the airframe is the same, right? Bravo I don't know.

[David Mazer]

Not quite. The Rocket and straight M20K have differences in their electrical systems. The Rocket has one alternator and two batteries and the straight M20K has one battery and two alternators. The 231 and the 231 Rocket has a 12 V system and manual cowl flaps and the 252 and the 252 Rocket has the 24 V system and electrically operated cowl flaps (that has been a thorn in my side for years now). There are some airframe modifications from the 231 to the 252 that are carried over into the Rocket as well to help increase the aerodynamics. I presume that the Rocket nose gear pucks wear out faster than the straight M20K due to the heavier weight of the engine also but I don't know that for sure. After that, I think the differences in maintenance from straight M20K to Rocket are insignificant.

[aviatoreb]

Not quite. The Rocket and straight M20K have differences in their electrical systems. The Rocket has one alternator and two batteries and the straight M20K has one battery and two alternators. The 231 and the 231 Rocket has a 12 V system and manual cowl flaps and the 252 and the 252 Rocket has the 24 V system and electrically operated cowl flaps (that has been a thorn in my side for years now). There are some airframe modifications from the 231 to the 252 that are carried over into the Rocket as well to help increase the aerodynamics. I presume that the Rocket nose gear pucks wear out faster than the straight M20K due to the heavier weight of the engine also but I don't know that for sure. After that, I think the differences in maintenance from straight M20K to Rocket are insignificant.

Quite true David. I was quick to say. None of those details would be significant differences in the big picture of maintenance cost. Even nose gear pucks are expensive but not that expensive.

What are the 231 vs 252 airframe differences regarding aerodynamic improvements? What am I missing in my old '81?

[David Mazer]

I'm having trouble finding that information. I used to find it on MooneyLand.com but the guy died not too long ago and the website appears to be down. One posting I found only said; "intercooler, automatic wastegates, infinitely variable cowl flaps, speed cleanups" but that doesn't really answer the question you asked. Further, most 231 have an STC'd automatic wastegate on them now anyway.

[aviatoreb]

I'm having trouble finding that information. I used to find it on MooneyLand.com but the guy died not too long ago and the website appears to be down. One posting I found only said; "intercooler, automatic wastegates, infinitely variable cowl flaps, speed cleanups" but that doesn't really answer the question you asked. Further, most 231 have an STC'd automatic wastegate on them now anyway.

I am sorry to hear that about the keeper of MooneyLand website.

Of course, "intercooler, automatic waste gates" go away with a rocket conversion, "infinitely variable cowl flaps" seem not so important for a rocket either since mine at least is so cool I can happily run with my engine when not in climb, ...I wonder what the speed cleanups are and how substantial they are. I know I don't have a one piece belly at least.

[bd32322]

Except for a more expensive engine overhaul cost of the rocket's TSIO520 vs the two different original TSIO360 versions of the M20K, the 231 and 252 where the engines are still very expensive to overhaul, the rest of the airplane issues of a M20k rocket, 252, 231 or what not are all the same as the airframe is the same, right? Bravo I don't know.

From continental's web-site- it seems like both are about the same price - 48k for a rebuilt. But for a new engine, it is about 7k cheaper than the tsio360mb. Poor Mooney should have put this engine on the M20K frame to begin with

[aviatoreb]

From continental's web-site- it seems like both are about the same price - 48k for a rebuilt. But for a new engine, it is about 7k cheaper than the tsio360mb. Poor Mooney should have put this engine on the M20K frame to begin with

Which one is this? mb? and both versions of tsio360 are 48k? Can you link the site. I wonder what they charge for tsio520. I called pen yann just for fyi to myself before I bought my plane and they charge 42k for the tsio520...or maybe it was 46k. I forget.

[David Mazer]

My quote from 2010:

ZEPHYR AIRCRAFT ENGINES INC.

39320 B ave. Zephyrhills, Florida 33542

Toll Free 1-800-204-0735, Phone 813-788-3305, Fax 813-788-4412

39320 B AVE. ZEPHYRHILLS, FL 33542 (813)788-3305 FAX (813)788-4412

TO: April 2, 2010

FROM: PAGES: 1

Ref: N305H Engine overhaul quote for TSIO-520-NB

Thank you for the opportunity to offer our services. We are pleased to quote as follows:

Overhaul of your Continental TSIO-520-NB engine, to factory new tolerances including, new Slick magneto’s, Slick ignition harness, spark plugs, rebuilt starter motor, rebuilt throttle body, manifold fuel valve and fuel pump, oil cooler overhaul, overhauled cylinders and turbo charger overhaul for a flat rate base price of $29,900.00, provided the crankcase and crankshaft are repairable. This price does not include any exhaust. New ECI Titan nickel barrel cylinders are optional for an additional $3,300.00. New ECI Titan steel barrel cylinders are optional for an additional $2,200.00. A new Cam Shaft instead of a re-grind for $800.00 extra. Waste gate O/H for $1250.00 EST, turbo controller $1225.00 EST, pressure relief valve [PRV] $475.00 EST. If wanting alternator overhaul, price very, due to alternator model. Turn time is approximately 4 to 5 weeks. Below is a break down for pricing, just add the options for total pricing. If you have any further questions please feel free to call, or drop an E-mail.

HAVE A GREAT DAY.

Herman

herman@zephyrengines.com

Break down in pricing and options:

Engine overhaul base price. $29,900..00

New ECI Titan nickel barrel cylinders $3,300.00 Extra

New ECI Titan steel barrel cylinders $2,200.00 Extra

New cam shaft $800.00 Extra

Waste gate overhaul $1,250.00 Extra Estimate

Turbo controller overhaul $1,225.00 Extra Estimate

Pressure relief valve [POV] overhaul $475.00 Extra Estimate

[fantom]

This thread both scares me and reminds me......

[bd32322]

Which one is this? mb? and both versions of tsio360 are 48k? Can you link the site. I wonder what they charge for tsio520. I called pen yann just for fyi to myself before I bought my plane and they charge 42k for the tsio520...or maybe it was 46k. I forget.

All the series of tsio 360 mb engines are 48k rebuilt. i cannot give a direct link because its a flash site. But here is the main site

Genuinecontinental.aero

Click on engine pricing and type in TSI0360mb ( the 4th character is strangely a zero and not O, so a T S I zero)

[aviatoreb]

My quote from 2010:

ZEPHYR AIRCRAFT ENGINES INC.

39320 B ave. Zephyrhills, Florida 33542

Toll Free 1-800-204-0735, Phone 813-788-3305, Fax 813-788-4412

39320 B AVE. ZEPHYRHILLS, FL 33542 (813)788-3305 FAX (813)788-4412

TO: April 2, 2010

FROM: PAGES: 1

Ref: N305H Engine overhaul quote for TSIO-520-NB

Thank you for the opportunity to offer our services. We are pleased to quote as follows:

Overhaul of your Continental TSIO-520-NB engine, to factory new tolerances including, new Slick magneto’s, Slick ignition harness, spark plugs, rebuilt starter motor, rebuilt throttle body, manifold fuel valve and fuel pump, oil cooler overhaul, overhauled cylinders and turbo charger overhaul for a flat rate base price of $29,900.00, provided the crankcase and crankshaft are repairable. This price does not include any exhaust. New ECI Titan nickel barrel cylinders are optional for an additional $3,300.00. New ECI Titan steel barrel cylinders are optional for an additional $2,200.00. A new Cam Shaft instead of a re-grind for $800.00 extra. Waste gate O/H for $1250.00 EST, turbo controller $1225.00 EST, pressure relief valve [PRV] $475.00 EST. If wanting alternator overhaul, price very, due to alternator model. Turn time is approximately 4 to 5 weeks. Below is a break down for pricing, just add the options for total pricing. If you have any further questions please feel free to call, or drop an E-mail.

HAVE A GREAT DAY.

Herman

herman@zephyrengines.com

Break down in pricing and options:

Engine overhaul base price. $29,900..00

New ECI Titan nickel barrel cylinders $3,300.00 Extra

New ECI Titan steel barrel cylinders $2,200.00 Extra

New cam shaft $800.00 Extra

Waste gate overhaul $1,250.00 Extra Estimate

Turbo controller overhaul $1,225.00 Extra Estimate

Pressure relief valve [POV] overhaul $475.00 Extra Estimate

Huh - 30k+. That is a lot less than the 42k+ I was told by Pen Yann - my rough quote in early 2011. Zephyr is a good company. How could they be so much less? And you said it cost $55k all said and done - could hanging the engine cost that much extra?

[aviatoreb]

This thread both scares me and reminds me......

John Pierpont Morgan musta flown an experimental. Running 87 octane.

[aviatoreb]

All the series of tsio 360 mb engines are 48k rebuilt. i cannot give a direct link because its a flash site. But here is the main site

Genuinecontinental.aero

Click on engine pricing and type in TSI0360mb ( the 4th character is strangely a zero and not O, so a T S I zero)

Thanks. I see continental charges 48k for a TSIO520nb as well.

I am even more curious how zephyr could charge 30k.

[David Mazer]

There were a lot of issues addressed during that annual. But, the engine was 30, the cylinders were 3, the turbo was 1.225, the waste gate was 1.25, etc.. The total was about 37 and the cost to pull it and replace it was significant. Zephyr is a reputable company and I think they did a good job. Others seem to charge more for the same work. I can't give you a good argument for why other than they can and get away with it. There is another company here in Orlando that was almost the same price and also has a very good reputation.