LANCECASPER Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/transportation/faa-investigating-after-pilots-heard-meowing-barking-over-radio-at-dca/4091524/ This subject has been covered many times on here, but it's different when you hear it on a TV news broadcast. I haven't let my cat watch this yet as I keep a handheld radio here at the house.
MikeOH Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 3 minutes ago, hammdo said: No one can have a comical moment I guess… FAA: We're not happy until you're not happy!
N201MKTurbo Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 I can’t imagine how they are going to tell who is doing it unless they grab the CVRs. If they did that the union would have a fit. They could use some AI to try to compare voices. They might be able to use a direction finder to figure out who did it, but with a sub second transmission doesn’t give much time to do it.
GeeBee Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 It is a really aggravating when you are getting a call on a discrete frequency, like an approach clearance and these morons are being childish at FL350 which broadcasts for a hundred miles. It was once funny but after the third time ever it was done, the humor is gone. It is now just boorish. As to how they find it, every airplane has a unique carrier wave, especially airliners because of the AC power generated within. It is no problem to track down the airplane with a little audio analysis. 4 1
N201MKTurbo Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 47 minutes ago, GeeBee said: It is a really aggravating when you are getting a call on a discrete frequency, like an approach clearance and these morons are being childish at FL350 which broadcasts for a hundred miles. It was once funny but after the third time ever it was done, the humor is gone. It is now just boorish. As to how they find it, every airplane has a unique carrier wave, especially airliners because of the AC power generated within. It is no problem to track down the airplane with a little audio analysis. Yes, they may have unique carrier waves, but those are not recorded. There is none of that carrier wave recorded with the detected audio. How much money is the FAA willing to spend to catch these folks? 1
EricJ Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: I can’t imagine how they are going to tell who is doing it unless they grab the CVRs. If they did that the union would have a fit. They could use some AI to try to compare voices. They might be able to use a direction finder to figure out who did it, but with a sub second transmission doesn’t give much time to do it. I did a consulting job a while back where I showed how to ID aviation voice traffic sources using mostly the basic AM radio RF characteristics. It wasn't 100% reliable, but it did a really good job and filled in the gaps left from the other techniques they were using. You don't even need multiple antennas or any kind of direction finding, although that would make it more reliable. I think they're using mostly AI now, though, and I don't know whether they're still looking at the RF characteristics or not. 4
N201MKTurbo Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 6 minutes ago, EricJ said: I did a consulting job a while back where I showed how to ID aviation voice traffic sources uses mostly the basic AM radio RF characteristics. It wasn't 100% reliable, but it did a really good job and filled in the gaps left from the other techniques they were using. You don't even need multiple antennas or any kind of direction finding, although that would make it more reliable. I think they're using mostly AI now, though, and I don't know whether they're still looking at the RF characteristics or not. Wouldn’t you need to install special equipment that could capture and identify the RF characteristics in real time? This equipment is not available to them now and can’t be used on recorded audio.
PeteMc Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 2 hours ago, hammdo said: No one can have a comical moment I guess… Sorry, I have NEVER thought the meowing was appropriate, nor funny... and I can have a comical moment if it's a good one. And I guess if you fly in a bigger metro area and hear it ALL THE TIME, you understand how dumb it is and you feel for the Controllers that have to monitor Guard where you hear it a lot. 4 2
N201MKTurbo Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 10 minutes ago, EricJ said: I did a consulting job a while back where I showed how to ID aviation voice traffic sources uses mostly the basic AM radio RF characteristics. It wasn't 100% reliable, but it did a really good job and filled in the gaps left from the other techniques they were using. You don't even need multiple antennas or any kind of direction finding, although that would make it more reliable. I think they're using mostly AI now, though, and I don't know whether they're still looking at the RF characteristics or not. I took some DSP training in the 90s in DC. The instructor and I went out for beers one night and he tried to hire me. He was working on a government project on a system in a briefcase that would record the conversations from a particular VHF walkie talkie no matter what frequency it switched to. He explained how it was going to work and he convinced me it was possible. He was analyzing every transmission from 10mhz to 1Ghz in real time and looking for the sideband signature of the crystal oscillator. All done in hardware with custom ASICs. 1
GeeBee Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 38 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: Yes, they may have unique carrier waves, but those are not recorded. There is none of that carrier wave recorded with the detected audio. How much money is the FAA willing to spend to catch these folks? Ever hear that hum when the mic is pressed on an AC powered airplane? Yes it is recorded.
N201MKTurbo Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 17 minutes ago, GeeBee said: Ever hear that hum when the mic is pressed on an AC powered airplane? Yes it is recorded. They may be able to do something with that. I haven’t noticed it on all transmissions. In a well designed radio, it shouldn’t be there.
Chocol8 Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: I can’t imagine how they are going to tell who is doing it unless they grab the CVRs. If they did that the union would have a fit. They could use some AI to try to compare voices. They might be able to use a direction finder to figure out who did it, but with a sub second transmission doesn’t give much time to do it. A few ground stations could triangulate the location of all transmissions in real time with pretty good precision. Match that up with the recording of the offending transmissions and ADSB or radar data and you have the plane responsible. They could then have an enforcement justification to grab the CVR's on landing, or just send out emergency certificate revocation notices through FedEx. A couple engineering students with a few hundred bucks worth of radios and AI tools could automate the entire thing in an afternoon. Word will spread and the behavior will stop LONG before the FAA has to "prove" their case in the NTSB kangaroo court and even longer for it to work its way through federal court. The cost of even a successful defense, plus employer action, should be a pretty solid deterrent to others.
EricJ Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said: Wouldn’t you need to install special equipment that could capture and identify the RF characteristics in real time? This equipment is not available to them now and can’t be used on recorded audio. I coded it up and demonstrated it for them on an RPi 3 with an SDR dongle. Less than $100 in hardware. It was also demodulating the AM so they had audio output, which is what they were already using. They were using an RPi5 so I had to completely change tool sets to be able to compile for 64-bit ARMs and it turned into a huge hurdle for me, and before I got over it I think they switched to AI. It was interesting, anyway.
N201MKTurbo Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 34 minutes ago, Chocol8 said: A few ground stations could triangulate the location of all transmissions in real time with pretty good precision. Match that up with the recording of the offending transmissions and ADSB or radar data and you have the plane responsible. They could then have an enforcement justification to grab the CVR's on landing, or just send out emergency certificate revocation notices through FedEx. A couple engineering students with a few hundred bucks worth of radios and AI tools could automate the entire thing in an afternoon. Word will spread and the behavior will stop LONG before the FAA has to "prove" their case in the NTSB kangaroo court and even longer for it to work its way through federal court. The cost of even a successful defense, plus employer action, should be a pretty solid deterrent to others. Federal law (49 U.S.C. § 1154) Precludes the FAA from using the CVR recordings for enforcement. Although that protection has been pierced for civil litigation. 1
Schllc Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: Yes, they may have unique carrier waves, but those are not recorded. There is none of that carrier wave recorded with the detected audio. How much money is the FAA willing to spend to catch these folks? If they spent .01 it would be too much. They have much more important issues they are already neglecting. sometimes I hear it and I laugh, others it’s annoying. i can guarantee one thing, this kind of attention will only cause more of it to be done… 3
N201MKTurbo Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 So, all the airliners have two person crews. They both have to at least be aware of it. I think a first officer would be hesitant to do it or risk the wrath of their captain. So, it must be captains that are doing it and their first officers don’t want to rat them out and limit their careers. @GeeBee what do you think about that?
N201MKTurbo Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 35 minutes ago, EricJ said: I coded it up and demonstrated it for them on an RPi 3 with an SDR dongle. Less than $100 in hardware. It was also demodulating the AM so they had audio output, which is what they were already using. They were using an RPi5 so I had to completely change tool sets to be able to compile for 64-bit ARMs and it turned into a huge hurdle for me, and before I got over it I think they switched to AI. It was interesting, anyway. Sure, but if the FAA was to requisition equipment to do it, it would end up being built by someone like Harris, and it would go 4 times over budget and would end up costing $100,000,000 and all the air cats would be dead before it was deployed. 1 2
PeteMc Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 1 hour ago, Chocol8 said: A few ground stations could triangulate the location of all transmissions in real time with pretty good precision. Match that up with the recording of the offending transmissions and ADSB or radar data and you have the plane responsible. You could go down that road, but why bother. The FAA is looking into something like a NAS Voice System, so in the not to distant future you'll know exactly who said what. (At which point you'll never hear another meow!)
EricJ Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 21 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: Sure, but if the FAA was to requisition equipment to do it, it would end up being built by someone like Harris, and it would go 4 times over budget and would end up costing $100,000,000 and all the air cats would be dead before it was deployed. I was working with a start-up who was offering a variety of services to multiple customers, including airport management. The gov will buy an existing service from whoever can provide it and they probably won't look inside the box to see what hardware it's running on.
GeeBee Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 51 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: So, all the airliners have two person crews. They both have to at least be aware of it. I think a first officer would be hesitant to do it or risk the wrath of their captain. So, it must be captains that are doing it and their first officers don’t want to rat them out and limit their careers. @GeeBee what do you think about that? No, it is a case of "dumb and dumber". 1
Chocol8 Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said: Federal law (49 U.S.C. § 1154) Precludes the FAA from using the CVR recordings for enforcement. Although that protection has been pierced for civil litigation. OK, but they wouldn't need it anyway. If they have position and aircraft, they can hit both captain and FO with enforcement actions and everyone with a functioning brain will stop.
Justin Schmidt Posted April 16 Report Posted April 16 3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: Federal law (49 U.S.C. § 1154) Precludes the FAA from using the CVR recordings for enforcement. Although that protection has been pierced for civil litigation. Doesn't preclude fcc and doj, Because faa has nothing to do with frequency as most violations on frequency are criminal acts.
N201MKTurbo Posted April 17 Report Posted April 17 All this tech talk is not the point. Us pilots need to act like grown ups… 7
Recommended Posts