Collision avoidance system vs ADS-B 1090 reciever

[davidsguerra]

someone please educate me... what would be the advantages of a collision avoidance system over an ads-B 1090 mhz reciever? range?

also L3 Skywatch versus GTS 800. which one is better and why?

thanks.

[jlunseth]

How much weight do you want to add to your aircraft?  Radar for collision would be great but heavy.  Ads-b is just really getting going, but not so heavy, just a receiver.

[davidsguerra]

as i understand it a CAS interrogates transponders in the area on the 1090 mhz freq and does not use radar.

 

[Piloto]

The current 1090 MHz ADS-B receivers in the market will only indicate ADS-B out equipped traffic. They will not detect Mode C traffic. Currently 95% of the GA fleet is Mode C only equipped with no ADS-B out capability. So it will miss 95% of the GA traffic. TCAS like L3 Skywatch will detect all mode A/C traffic. After 2020 all aircraft operating in Class A, B, C or outside the US will still need to be Mode C equipped so they will be visible to TCAS systems. So your best option for now and later on is to get a Mode C capable system such as the L3 Skywatch, Avydine, GTS-800 or the Monroy Sky-Watch.

José

[davidsguerra]

so an ads b 1090 reciever wont detect a mode c transponder? doesnt a mode C use 1090mhz?

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

A quickie CAS overview:

TCAS is an airborne interrogator system that sends out mode A and mode C interrogations, processes the replies from near-by transponders and shows traffic on a cockpit display.  Such traffic are called "targets" in radar and secondary surveillance system parlance.     TCAS will show any near-by target that has an operating transponder.   It won't show any 'non-cooperating' targets such as planes with no transponder or planes with the transponder unhelpfully switched off.   If only a mode A reply is received, the distance and relative bearing are shown but there's no altitude information.  

TCAS uses a directional antenna to measure the relative bearing of the replies.   It uses the round-trip time between interrogation and reply to determine distance.   And, if there is mode C in the reply, the TCAS decodes the mode C altitude information and displays that relative to your own altitude.  

More sophisticated TCAS versions compute conflict advisories and suggest which way to fly to avoid the target(s) that may get too close for comfort.

There are some traffic systems that use active interrogation but don't have the directional phased array antenna, so they only tell you the range and relative altitude, but not the relative bearing to the target.    Some of the portable ones that sit on the glareshield fall into this category.

There is also a TIS system that uses Mode S, but this relies upon the ground-based ATCRBS interrogator to provide the target information via the data link in Mode S.  This system will only work when a properly-equipped ground-based interrogator sees both your aircraft and other transponder-equipped aircraft.  When those conditions are not met, the traffic display shows "TIS not available."

The ADS-B traffic functions will become like TCAS when all aircraft have either the Mode S (ES) and/or ADS-B out equipment on-board and operating.  Unlike TCAS, the ADS-B traffic system will depend on GPS coding to provide location information in the transmissions.   Each plane will transmit its GPS coordinates including altitude and velocity vectors.  A near-by plane can compute relative bearing and distance to targets and paint them on a display, or perhaps in the bright future it might send avoidance commands directly to an autopilot.  

 

[davidsguerra]

can i put a l3 skywatch in a mooney m20k? is it compatible with my GMX 200?

[jetdriven]

Jose has it right. After using 1090 traffic on ADS-B for about 20 hours thw only targets are within 20 miles of IAH or HOU, and United Airlines and UPS  airliners in flight. 

[TLSDriver]

Quote: davidsguerra

so an ads b 1090 reciever wont detect a mode c transponder? doesnt a mode C use 1090mhz?

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Quote: davidsguerra

can i put a l3 skywatch in a mooney m20k? is it compatible with my GMX 200?

[Jerry 5TJ]

Quote: TLSDriver

 One of the reason for ATC keeping Mode C/A is spoof proof. That is you can fool ADS-B by transmitting erroneus position information while with Mode C/A is impossible. An unfriendly aircraft coming into the US Coast line can transmit a different position information but can not fool the Mode A/C

[TLSDriver]

Quote: jerry-N5911Q

Well, you can spoof an interrogator by selective lead-off of the transponder reply time, and by faking the mode C. Creating false altitude replies in Mode C is especially easy. Moving the Mode A reply takes some cleverness but is computationally feasible.

I suspect that's why primary radar is still being deployed at the borders -- unfriendly airplanes don't emit Mode A/C replies at all.

Apropos of that -- There is a picture of long range radar tracks in the Caribbean in today's New York Times in an article on Venezuelan drug trafficking.   Those tracks don't come from transponder replies, I'll bet...

[Jerry 5TJ]

Quote: TLSDriver

Well, you can spoof an interrogator by selective lead-off of the transponder reply time, and by faking the mode C. Creating false altitude replies in Mode C is especially easy. Moving the Mode A reply takes some cleverness but is computationally feasible.

I suspect that's why primary radar is still being deployed at the borders -- unfriendly airplanes don't emit Mode A/C replies at all.

Apropos of that -- There is a picture of long range radar tracks in the Caribbean in today's New York Times in an article on Venezuelan drug trafficking.   Those tracks don't come from transponder replies, I'll bet...

[bd32322]

Quote: davidsguerra

so an ads b 1090 reciever wont detect a mode c transponder? doesnt a mode C use 1090mhz?

 

[Immelman]

Quote: bd32322

Key thing is you have to transmit your position. If you only have a receiver then you will not get any traffic information unless someone else close to you in the airspace is transmitting on ADSB-Out - then you will receive traffic information - but you can hardly rely on that

 

[davidsguerra]

if every plane had ads b out, at what distance will i pick up an inbound target with an 1090 ES reciever? i.e how big is the hockeypuck of separation for ads-B?

thanks

[bd32322]

Quote: davidsguerra

if every plane had ads b out, at what distance will i pick up an inbound target with an 1090 ES reciever? i.e how big is the hockeypuck of separation for ads-B?

thanks

[Immelman]

Quote: davidsguerra

if every plane had ads b out, at what distance will i pick up an inbound target with an 1090 ES reciever? i.e how big is the hockeypuck of separation for ads-B?

thanks

[NotarPilot]

I have the Avidyne TAS-600 in my plane and I'm very happy with it.  My only complaint is it does not show direction the target is moving but it does give me a display on the 430 of distance and altitude above or below me.  It's really come in handy more than once.  

But I have a question for you experts.  Does the Avidyne TAS-600 qualify as "TCAS"?

[bd32322]

Quote: NotarPilot

I have the Avidyne TAS-600 in my plane and I'm very happy with it.  My only complaint is it does not show direction the target is moving but it does give me a display on the 430 of distance and altitude above or below me.  It's really come in handy more than once.  

But I have a question for you experts.  Does the Avidyne TAS-600 qualify as "TCAS"?

[Piloto]

Quote: NotarPilot

I have the Avidyne TAS-600 in my plane and I'm very happy with it.  My only complaint is it does not show direction the target is moving but it does give me a display on the 430 of distance and altitude above or below me.  It's really come in handy more than once.  

But I have a question for you experts.  Does the Avidyne TAS-600 qualify as "TCAS"?