GeeBee Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 My home airport KGVL is a very busy uncontrolled airport. Today, I went out for a short flight to warm up my oil for change. I entered back into the pattern on a 45 to the down wind. Announced 45, downwind, base, turning final. As I turned final an ATP Fight Schools Archer cut inside of me. He was behind me on down wind and when he announced base, I assumed he was turning base behind me. Nope, cut me out of the pattern. So I moved off, flew a go-around to the right of the runway. I said, "Hey Career Track 479 you cut me off." He said, "Sorry". He was a touch and go and fell in behind me in the pattern again. I flew the pattern again, announcing all the right things and the right places, listening and watching for other traffic. I turned final and at 300 feet another ATP Archer announced and pulled onto the runway in front of me. Never mind strobes, landing lights, wig wag recognition lights, he just took the runway announcing his intention. Go around number 2. I am normally accommodating to student pilots and flight training but I kind of lost my cool. I keyed the mic and said, "To all you wanna be pilots and their instructors, it is not enough to announce your position, you need to listen up in the pattern. If you can't recite where everyone is in the pattern, you need to leave it it." People just announce their position as if talking insulates them from situational awareness. That has got to end. 3
201er Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 32 minutes ago, GeeBee said: I keyed the mic and said, "To all you wanna be pilots and their instructors, it is not enough to announce your position, you need to listen up in the pattern. If you can't recite where everyone is in the pattern, you need to leave it it." People just announce their position as if talking insulates them from situational awareness. That has got to end. I’m surprised they announced at all. You can at least give them credit for that so you’d know to initiate your go-around. I got cut off 3 times by 2 aircraft coming into Alton Bay a week ago. First one cut me off on base inside my base as you described. After a go-around, the next one took off right in front of me so I had to do a side step go around. If that wasn’t enough, he made an illegal right turn out almost in to me. Luckily I was watching him the whole time and cut across above and behind when I saw him start a turn into my upwind. And he never even bothered to announce anything. Sheesh. 91.113g Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.
Schllc Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 Uncontrolled fields are the wild Wild West. A few months ago I had a plane taxi onto the opposite runway I had just landed on, they never said a word. They were so late in my landing roll thatI had no time to take off again to miss them. My right brake locked up and I blew out a tire trying to stop. They sat 1/4 of the way up the runway with a tailwind until I limped off the runway and then took off. Never said a word. Probably a good thing, as my response would not have been as measured.
N201MKTurbo Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 Way back when KCHD was an uncontrolled field, there was a crop duster outfit on the field (San Tan Dusters) run by Joe Henderson (RIP). Joe pretty much flew 24/7 during cotton season. He never talked on the radio. We wondered if he even had it turned on. One morning I started my takeoff roll on 04 and I see Joe taxi his giant Air Tractor onto 22 and start rolling. I keyed my mic and said “Joe, you turning right?” He actually keyed his mic and said “Yep”. I got airborne before midfield and turned right, so did he. It was a beautiful thing the Blue Angles would have been proud of. About a year after that he was spraying and making one of his crazy aerobatic turns at the end of a run at about 10 feet AGL when the right wing separated from his plane. Corrosion had set in, in an uninspectable part of the airframe under the hopper. Leland Snow the head of Air Tractor was devastated. He had taught Joe how to spray, they were very good friends. He didn’t wait for the FAA, he recalled every Air Tractor 850, inspected them all and added an inspection cover. He found a couple more corroded tubes. 2
FlyingDude Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 Thanks for venting but you know that ATP folks don't hang out here, right? One time, I was up just to warm the oil and found myself in downwind at a nearby airport. There was this atp hotshot and his student shooting the ILS "approach" in broad daylight. Long story short, while he was 5nm out, I turned base. Then he dipped below me. As you did, I stayed clear and had a verbal exchange. I said "you can't do that... straight in approaches have no right of way... look up the accident at Las Vegas. " He goes "I'm IFR, IFR has right of way, look it up in AIM." I just said "that's bullshit. You're vfr and are under vfr separation. . you might cause an accident." To which, a couple weeks later another straight in approach plowed into another plane in the pattern. But, i captured his tail number, adsb track and called up ATP and gave an earful. And I said 'if that doesn't stop, next time I'm calling the fsdo." IFR my a$$. It was unlimited visibility and 0 clouds and no wind. 1
Fly Boomer Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 11 hours ago, GeeBee said: People just announce their position as if talking insulates them from situational awareness. That has got to end. Sounds pretty enlightened to me. Some of the people I hang out with either 1) don't have radios, or 2) don't turn them on, or 3) don't put their headsets on, or 4) don't listen to the chatter, or 5) just don't announce, or 6) as in your case, announce but have no idea where anyone else is. <big sigh>
Rick Junkin Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 The production line flight schools don't appear to be spending much time on teaching general situational awareness. Their focus is more on building what they see as better instrument/commercial/ATP pilots by establishing instrument flight habit patterns from the get go. Unfortunately this can, and obviously does, establish a mindset that if they are flying on an IFR clearance then it's everyone else's responsibility to get/stay out of their way. Of course that isn't the case, especially at a non-towered airport (yeah, I drank some of the Koolaide, we know them as uncontrolled airports). And the guy turning inside your base? That's just poor airmanship, plain and simple, due to lack of situation awareness. It's appropriate to correct/reprimand that on the spot with a clear, concise radio call. Keep it as friendly as you can, but firm. They can't learn if they don't know they made a mistake. Does anyone here have an "in" at ATP or one of the other big players? The best way I can think of to effect any change is talk to the folks in charge of the syllabus and convince them to emphasize proper operations at the non-towered practice fields they use.
Bolter Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 4 hours ago, FlyingDude said: One time, I was up just to warm the oil and found myself in downwind at a nearby airport. There was this atp hotshot and his student shooting the ILS "approach" in broad daylight. Long story short, while he was 5nm out, I turned base. Then he dipped below me. As you did, I stayed clear and had a verbal exchange. I said "you can't do that... straight in approaches have no right of way... look up the accident at Las Vegas. " He goes "I'm IFR, IFR has right of way, look it up in AIM." I just said "that's bullshit. You're vfr and are under vfr separation. . you might cause an accident." To which, a couple weeks later another straight in approach plowed into another plane in the pattern. But, i captured his tail number, adsb track and called up ATP and gave an earful. And I said 'if that doesn't stop, next time I'm calling the fsdo." IFR my a$$. It was unlimited visibility and 0 clouds and no wind. Even if he was in solid IMC on the approach, under a flight plan, and with ATC, once he reached the legally VFR airport, he was VFR and had to integrate with the existing pattern traffic without any priority. Last thing ATC says is usually something like, several aircraft in the pattern, switch to airport frequency, and the unsaid "good luck with that".
FlyingDude Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 27 minutes ago, Bolter said: "good luck with that" My point is, venting here or on other social media is futile. You need to call them and talk to their chief safety officer. If that never works, then call up your fsdo. 4
Andy95W Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 2 hours ago, FlyingDude said: My point is, venting here or on other social media is futile. You need to call them and talk to their chief safety officer. If that never works, then call up your fsdo. Exactly! I appreciate a good rant as much as the next guy, but doing it on Mooneyspace is kinda preaching to the choir. 1 1
201er Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 8 hours ago, FlyingDude said: Long story short, while he was 5nm out, I turned base. Then he dipped below me. As you did, I stayed clear and had a verbal exchange. I said "you can't do that... straight in approaches have no right of way... Actually the regs literally say the airplane on final approach has the right of way! 91.113g Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight
FlyingDude Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 @201er in vfr, the pattern is within 2 miles from the field. The guy chasing needles at 5nm is not on the same final, even if he's on the final leg of an ifr approach. Same 91.113 gives the right of way to the lower aircraft. On base, you're 500-700agl. 3 degree path puts you to 1500agl at 5nm. But I commend those who extend their downwinds 5 miles to let in needle chasers. You may want to ignore the text and the AC cited, because we all agree that ACs are not regulatory. (Ac90-66c par 9.11.3) But please do open the link for the picture. https://goldstandardaviation.com/f/why-ifr-traffic-does-not-have-right-of-way-over-vfr-traffic
Schllc Posted February 25 Report Posted February 25 Flight schools are part of the problem, as are crop dusters. I have had crazy stuff from both. While there are a lot of competent and aware pilots who prefer untowered fields, probably the majority of people fit this description. However, there are also people who never overcome radio shyness, or fly once every two years, or just people who really shouldn’t be flying at all, and they all prefer untowered airports. I absolutely believe in today’s day and age, with the technology available and the low cost, there is no reason any airplane should not be required to have a radio and use that radio at airfields. I cannot think of a single reason that radios should not be required.
LANCECASPER Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 People are gonna do what people are gonna do. I doubt that I will ever change someone else's behavior. I don't demand or expect right of way in an airplane or in a car. If someone "takes it away from me" that means I adjust and get there a little after they do. I don't care who wins, I just don't want any ties. 2 1
Justin Schmidt Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 Wonder what recoil would be on our planes with a gau-8. No tie there
GeeBee Posted February 26 Author Report Posted February 26 10 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: People are gonna do what people are gonna do. I doubt that I will ever change someone else's behavior. I don't demand or expect right of way in an airplane or in a car. If someone "takes it away from me" that means I adjust and get there a little after they do. I don't care who wins, I just don't want any ties. I agree, but what bothers me most is the shocking level of low situational awareness. SA in all aspects is vital to safe flying. It is how you anticipate problems before they become emergencies. 2
Hank Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 Sounds like the problem in this case is inexperienced instructors. I've never understood why so many CFIs are brand new to flying. We don't let 16-year-olds become driving instructor, but we seem quite happy with flight instructors who have sometimes two whole years of experience flying mostly for exams and certificates. I've been based at several uncontrolled fields with nary a problem, and near one with a reputation for pilots not using the radio; there's not much you can do except keep your eyes open, out the windshield and both front windows, and your head on a swivel. Peer pressure may work, if consistently applied by multiple people to a single wayward pilot, but it will be difficult to change the culture of the school from outside by yourself. Fly safe out there!
Flyler Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 I started my PPL when I was 37, I had taken about 8 hours of lessons when I was 14 so I knew what to expect. Got in the plane with my instructor, a 17 year old girl. When I went home to tell my wife about my first lesson, and the young CFI, she was noticably upset. Usually my wife is not the jealous type, at all. So I was a bit confused, but understood why she might be upset with me in a small cockpit with a young lady..? It just seemed odd. So I questioned her about it and she said something like "I don't care if it's a girl I just thought you'd have an old guy with a mustache, I don't want you to die!" I laughed so hard. Anyhow, that young lady did a great job and got me all the way through my PPL. I didn't know at the time, but when I got in the plane I was her first student too. One of my last flights, we got in the plane and this huge Kodiak on floats rolls past us. She looks at it and says "I want to get my seaplane rating!" I said, go get it! Two weeks later "I got my Seaplane rating! They offered me a job!" What a badass young woman! I am now flying with an old guy (sorry Rob) but he doesn't have a mustache. The difference is remarkable. I learned very much "by the book" with the young CFI but she simply didn't have enough experience to teach me some of the gritty experienced pilot lessons I get from Rob. I very much appreciate both CFI's teachings. 1
takair Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 Damn, I’m not THAT old. lol. I consider myself “kinda old”. It’s funny, my mother is 86 and she sometimes mentions what “the old people” are doing. I guess it’s all relative. As a side note, that 17 year old did a pretty good job!! I’m envious. 1
Justin Schmidt Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 40 minutes ago, Hank said: I've never understood why so many CFIs are brand new to flying. Because some bureaucrat thought making up an arbitrary number of 1500 would make airlines safer. The rush to 1500, which has a massive hit on quality of instruction.
Hank Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 10 minutes ago, Justin Schmidt said: Because some bureaucrat thought making up an arbitrary number of 1500 would make airlines safer. The rush to 1500, which has a massive hit on quality of instruction. Ah, yes, the Buffalo crash, whise pilots both had > 1500 hours . . . .
Andy95W Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Flyler said: Got in the plane with my instructor, a 17 year old girl. I thought you had to be a commercial pilot to be a CFI? The age for that is 18. But I definitely get the gist of what you’re saying: there are a good number of very competent young men and women instructors out there, regardless of age. In my almost 40 years of flying, it doesn’t seem to have changed much. There have always been good and bad instructors, many of whom are building time to get to something that pays more for less work. Can’t really blame them for that. 1
MikeOH Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 23 minutes ago, Andy95W said: thought you had to be a commercial pilot to be a CFI? The age for that is 18. I thought being paid to teach is NOT considered being paid to fly in the eyes of the FAA, BWTHDIK?
MikeOH Posted February 26 Report Posted February 26 17 hours ago, FlyingDude said: 201er in vfr, the pattern is within 2 miles from the field. The guy chasing needles at 5nm is not on the same final, even if he's on the final leg of an ifr approach Do you have a cite for either of those statements? Your linked article did not. I also recall an FAA violation case against an aircraft that had turned base from the wrong direction (e.g. right base when traffic was left) many miles from the airport, well over 2 miles, and was, thus, considered "in the pattern". 17 hours ago, FlyingDude said: Same 91.113 gives the right of way to the lower aircraft. That same 91.113 also very clearly states, regarding the lower aircraft, "...it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another aircraft which is on final approach to land...". This is precisely what the guy turning base in front of the guy on final is doing!
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