The Thrill Of Buying. The Agony Of The Sale

[johnggreen]

Many of you know me, at least from my posts.  And you know that I don't mind "speaking my mind".  And, unfortunately, that often means I offend, but like my grandmother used to tell me, "nothing offends like the truth".  So put on your thick skins and let's go.

I have owned my Bravo for seven years now.  It is number 31 of 32 airplanes I have owned in my flying career.  It has in its seven years full filled its desired mission as well as any airplane I have ever owned.  That being said, my mission is changing.  With my last child to get out of "higher" education in the next twelve months, their settling down in one spot, having my grandchildren (one on the ground now) etc., my mission is going to change to more passengers, more room, and more useful load.  I have NO brand loyalty, but I truly enjoy flying the Bravo and it's capability, reliability, and economy have been phenomenal.  In spite of this, I'm going to speculate that sometime within the next twelve months, I'm going to purchase  a, forgive me, twin.

Having owned 32 airplanes, that means I have bought 32 and sold 30 as I own two now.  In addition, three years ago, I sold two aircraft for the estate of my best friend, at no charge.  I think I talked to around 60 people to sell those two aircraft, no more than 5 were legitimate buyers, but there is nothing new about that.  The rest wanted to talk airplanes, or talk about what they thought they wanted to buy, or make ridiculous offers to see if I was crazy or desperate.  Some, I think were just lonely.  I was kind and considerate to all but one who actually came to "look".  After two days of "entertaining" him, I sent his dumb ass back to Nebraska without any polite ado.

Interestingly, in buying 32 airplanes, I had a A&P/IA do a pre-buy on no more than 5.  I did have maybe that many pre-buys on some that I turned down.  Though not an A&P, give me 20 minutes with the logs, 60 minutes inspecting the airplane, and 30 minutes flying it and I'll know with a 90% surity whether I want the airplane or not.  I've been around equipment and airplanes all my life and I've learned the "basics".

In those 27 or so airplanes I bought without a professional pre-buy, I missed one cylinder.  Had it rebuilt for $1200 and flew the airplane for four years without spending another maintenance dime.

So, at some point, I'm going to put my Bravo on the market.  It will sell to some intelligent, lucky buyer.  Unfortunately, I'll have to talk to 30 idiots to find him.  I truly DO NOT look forward to that!  I'm afraid that this time, I may have a scarcity of patience, but I promise, I will try to persevere.

When an aircraft is flown regularly by the same pilot, who can afford the airplane, whose wife is a passenger almost every time, with logs that exemplify that every wear item is replaced before its mean time between failure, well anybody but a fool should be able to discern something from that.  Some won't.  Most won't.

I can hardly wait for the idiot who proposes that I take it to a Mooney shop with a blank check to fix any discrepency they find. I assure you that will end the discussion.

I can also hardly wait for the fool who proposes that something is wrong with the airplane because I haven't taken it to a Mooney shop.  Or the one who can't make up his mind as to whether he wants turbocharging or naturally aspirated, or TKS or not, or maybe a Bonanza.  They will all be there vying for my time.  Most simply won't be able to afford the airplane but maybe, just maybe, I'm crazy, or desperate and will make them a Christmas gift.

Buying the twin will be a cake walk though due to the average age of twins today, I'm pretty sure a detailed pre-buy will be in the offering.

If it comes, when it comes, I just hope I can maintain my cherub like demeanor and politely suffer the fools who are bound to call, but honestly, I dread the prospect.

Jgreen 

[tony]

John, your post made me smile.  I can't wait until we get "the rest of the story"

[scottfromiowa]

I just want to know if you did 51 today...get that extra one in.  Strive to be "better".  Can't imagine buying a plane from you...selling a house was enough Mein Kampf for 2012.  Good luck with your sale and exit from Mooney ownership.  Maybe Byron will "step up" to your bird?

[jetdriven]

Shoot, I was thinking of "stepping up" to a Sonex Waiex.

[scottfromiowa]

Sweet...

[johnggreen]

Scottfromiowa,

Stange!  You would base your purchase of an airplane on whether you are insecure with the the owner and not the quality of the airplane.  I've noticed that you often express a terribly emotional, sensitive, and fragile ego.  That is really not my fault.

Jgreen

No 51 today.  Today it's all cardio. 

[scottfromiowa]

You amuse me...Have fun with that

[Parker_Woodruff]

John,

You've got a lot more experience than myself.  I have enough knowledge with Mooneys to know what I want in a plane, value it accordingly, and even be able to give the airframe and the logs a good lookover and maybe find a few deal killers.  In other words, there are some red flags I can find that would tell me to run before taking it to a MSC.

But I don't have enough knowledge and skill to trust that I've found a "Pure Quill" airframe without it being looked over by one of my preferred Mooney A&Ps across the country.

I also highly doubt that if a buyer came to you with a reasonable offer compared to the rest of the market and compensated you for travel expenses, that you wouldn't be willing to take it to the buyer's reputable, somewhat regional Mooney shop of choice.  The kind that can do a prebuy in 1-2 days max, etc.  Doesn't that beat the alternative of having to talk to 30 more "prospective" buyers??

Some of us just don't have the A&P skills required to trust ourselves alone on a purchase that can be a significant portion of our net worth...even before problems with the plane are found.

[gregwatts]

Quote: johnggreen

Many of you know me, at least from my posts. And you know that I don't mind "speaking my mind". And, unfortunately, that often means I offend, but like my grandmother used to tell me, "nothing offends like the truth". So put on your thick skins and let's go.

I have owned my Bravo for seven years now. It is number 31 of 32 airplanes I have owned in my flying career. It has in its seven years full filled its desired mission as well as any airplane I have ever owned. That being said, my mission is changing. With my last child to get out of "higher" education in the next twelve months, their settling down in one spot, having my grandchildren (one on the ground now) etc., my mission is going to change to more passengers, more room, and more useful load. I have NO brand loyalty, but I truly enjoy flying the Bravo and it's capability, reliability, and economy have been phenomenal. In spite of this, I'm going to speculate that sometime within the next twelve months, I'm going to purchase a, forgive me, twin.

Having owned 32 airplanes, that means I have bought 32 and sold 30 as I own two now. In addition, three years ago, I sold two aircraft for the estate of my best friend, at no charge. I think I talked to around 60 people to sell those two aircraft, no more than 5 were legitimate buyers, but there is nothing new about that. The rest wanted to talk airplanes, or talk about what they thought they wanted to buy, or make ridiculous offers to see if I was crazy or desperate. Some, I think were just lonely. I was kind and considerate to all but one who actually came to "look". After two days of "entertaining" him, I sent his dumb ass back to Nebraska without any polite ado.

Interestingly, in buying 32 airplanes, I had a A&P/IA do a pre-buy on no more than 5. I did have maybe that many pre-buys on some that I turned down. Though not an A&P, give me 20 minutes with the logs, 60 minutes inspecting the airplane, and 30 minutes flying it and I'll know with a 90% surity whether I want the airplane or not. I've been around equipment and airplanes all my life and I've learned the "basics".

In those 27 or so airplanes I bought without a professional pre-buy, I missed one cylinder. Had it rebuilt for $1200 and flew the airplane for four years without spending another maintenance dime.

So, at some point, I'm going to put my Bravo on the market. It will sell to some intelligent, lucky buyer. Unfortunately, I'll have to talk to 30 idiots to find him. I truly DO NOT look forward to that! I'm afraid that this time, I may have a scarcity of patience, but I promise, I will try to persevere.

When an aircraft is flown regularly by the same pilot, who can afford the airplane, whose wife is a passenger almost every time, with logs that exemplify that every wear item is replaced before its mean time between failure, well anybody but a fool should be able to discern something from that. Some won't. Most won't.

I can hardly wait for the idiot who proposes that I take it to a Mooney shop with a blank check to fix any discrepency they find. I assure you that will end the discussion.

I can also hardly wait for the fool who proposes that something is wrong with the airplane because I haven't taken it to a Mooney shop. Or the one who can't make up his mind as to whether he wants turbocharging or naturally aspirated, or TKS or not, or maybe a Bonanza. They will all be there vying for my time. Most simply won't be able to afford the airplane but maybe, just maybe, I'm crazy, or desperate and will make them a Christmas gift.

Buying the twin will be a cake walk though due to the average age of twins today, I'm pretty sure a detailed pre-buy will be in the offering.

If it comes, when it comes, I just hope I can maintain my cherub like demeanor and politely suffer the fools who are bound to call, but honestly, I dread the prospect.

Jgreen

[BorealOne]

I'm not borealone...login error.  Sorry.

[231Pilot]

I would never buy from any owner who was unwilling to have a pre-buy done and either fix squawks or adjust price accordingly.  That's like buying a house without a home inspection and appraisal just because the owner says it's a great house and I like the floorplan and the way it looks.  The only way a deal like that would happen is with a warranty and money in escrow to make it good.  The idiot would be the one who doesn't want the pre-buy not the one who does.

Your plane might be pristine, and have no issues that would require maintainence, but if that is the case, why refuse a pre-buy?  If there are squawks, they should be addressed whether you sell or not.

Based on your post, I don't think I would want to buy from any owner with your outlook on aircraft sales.

Why would a pre-buy be necessary for the twin you buy, but undesirable for the Bravo you sell?  Is there a double standard here?  Just wondering, but maybe I missed the point of your post...probably not smart enough to get it....I'm one of those idiots who insists on Mooney pre-buys by Mooney experts.

[co2bruce]

Lew....  I must be as stupid as you, because thats exactly the way I read it too. 

[fantom]

Quote: johnggreen

If it comes, when it comes, I just hope I can maintain my cherub like demeanor and politely suffer the fools who are bound to call, but honestly, I dread the prospect.

Jgreen 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: johnggreen

Many of you know me, at least from my posts.  And you know that I don't mind "speaking my mind".  And, unfortunately, that often means I offend, but like my grandmother used to tell me, "nothing offends like the truth".  So put on your thick skins and let's go.

[bnicolette]

That attitude would even make it hard for me to refer somebody to have a look at your Bravo if I knew they were in the market.  Selling is never any fun but dealing with potential buyers is just a necessary evil I suppose.  Not long ago I was a buyer.  The plane I bought was not nearly as expensive as the one you'll be selling, but I sure wasn't going to spend that much money without a prebuy from a reputiable shop/mechanic.

Also, not long ago, I was thinking about selling my Mooney as I didn't need it to commute to work anymore.  I was very confident in the airplane and as long as I had a serious buyer, sales agreement, deposit in hand/escrow, I would have been perfectly willing to take it a reasonable distance (buyers expense) for a prebuy.

It is the "golden rule" for me.  You remember the one I'm speaking of...........the do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. 

However, different strokes for different folks.  When it comes time to sell John, I wish you the best of luck.  From reading many of your posts on Mooneyspace, I would have no reservations about purchasing your airplane.........with a prebuy of course.    But I'd need about 3 more jobs to have that plane parked in my hangar.  Hope you'll sill be lurking on Mooneyspace and adding commentary.

Blue skies all.

[carqwik]

Maybe Jgreen bought a bunch of new airplanes with warranties....no pre-buy needed!

[Antoni Deighton]

I agree with most of the responses; I'm not smart enough to forego a prebuy. But more than that, I think I'm just too dumb to understand the point of this post. Its a buyers market, and sellers can't be too picky  Good luck with the sale, John.  I'm sorry you're going to have to deal with "all those idiots", but that's not my problem. 

[jetdriven]

 I., for one, enjoy hearing John speak his mind. He may be wrong sometimes, but more often not. There is plenty of sage advice in his posts, and more often than not he is dead-assed on. Fear not, John.  Tell it like it is.

PS, Baron 55's are virtually free right now. Just don't look at the fuel reciept. But there are no luggage racks on a hearse.

[DaV8or]

What's the point of this thread again? Oh, that's right, most people are idiots with no knowledge of anything and only a precious few are worthy of John's time.

Got it.

[johnggreen]

Honestly fellows chill out,

Can you seriously not see the tongue in cheek in that post?  Some of you certainly can't.  Everything is serious and every post is a potential threat.  The most mysterious thing is that many take offense that someone, somewhere, may actually have some experiences that give them a different perspective.

There are some really, really fragile egos here, Scottfromiowa being only one.  He is personally offended by a flippant, intended to be humorous post, by someone who lives 700 miles from him, who he has never met, and who had never made a personal comment (much less slighting comment) toward him.

I think it really boils down to if you are looking for an insult, you will certainly be able to find one.

I could have never fathomed that this post would be taken as it was by some.  Scott appears to be offended that anyone would think of owning an airplane bigger or heaven-for-bid "better" than a Mooney.  It must drive him crazy to see a successful businessman/pilot taxi up in a Cessna Mustang.

Hell, I don't know.  It's all so damn childish that I would tend to take Scott's offer to leave the site except it's not his or anyone elses privilege to tell anyone to leave because they don't like or agree with his perspective; it is extraordinarily immature. 

Bryan is the exact opposite.  He and I have disagreed and agreed at various times like he said.  He can even say, "John, you are wrong".  He isn't hurt, or offended, in fact, he is, if anything, intrigued.  And Bryon, for the record, I would very much like to meet you face to face someday.  I think we would be friends.  

In closing, I will say a couple of more things.  My "observations" on selling airplanes is quite accurate. 80% of the people who call you will be talkers, not buyers.  They will make the "selling" effort both enormous and oftentimes unpleasant.

Secondly, as long as I make no personally disparaging remarks, I have the right to my views and according to the rules of this site, the right to express them.  If some fragile personality sitting behind some nameless computer chooses to disagree, IGNORE THE POST.  As for telling me to get off the site, **** you.  It's power that you imagine but do not actually possess, but then, that is the problem with these faceless, nameless on-line posts.  You can pretend to be a lot of things that you will never be in real life.

At least, I am man enough to sign my posts and always have.

Jgreen 

[scottfromiowa]

Me thinks the lady doth protest to much...

I have seen humour, and wit and not seeing it.  Nope, not so much.

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: johnggreen

I could have never fathomed that this post would be taken as it was by some. 

Jgreen 

[rorythedog]

Quote: DaV8or

What's the point of this thread again? Oh, that's right, most people are idiots with no knowledge of anything and only a precious few are worthy of John's time.

Got it.

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: rorythedog

Dave, I think that the author of this post enjoys pushing other people's buttons by expressing the most arrogant, self agrandizing and stupid assertions that he can think up and waiting for the responses that are sure to come, ie: a pre-buy inspection is mostly unnecesary.  

His claim that "I never would have fathomed the way this post was taken..." is disingenuous and is disproved by his own words in the very first paragraph of his original post.  He also states that "he may be known from some of his past postings, and I seem to remember a ludicrous past post defending his "friend", the execrable and well known Florida Mooney Expert.  We are known by the friends we keep.....

[scottfromiowa]

On second thought.  A man means what he says and says what he means and lord knows any man that can drop and give 50 is a mans man.  I will judge "the man" by his words...and respond to HIS words rather than believing that what the man speaks is merely a riddle wrapped in an enigma for the savvy reader to interpret.

So do I demand a pre-buy or not...