Inexperienced pilot looking for Bravo wisdom

[hazek]

Dear experienced Bravo drivers,

 

I'm a 200TT PPL pilot with 40 hours on my own Bravo. While I believe I'm reasonably safe in my plane, I'm still very green, and I know there are things I don't yet understand. I read these forums extensively, so I feel I have a solid grasp of engine management. I understand the POH is essentially marketing material when it comes to performance and contains some oddities, outdated checklists, and procedures. It is what it is, and I'm aware of its limitations. I plan my descents carefully, fly by the numbers, and slow down early rather than late in my approach. I currently fly VFR exclusively but am working toward my IR (not yet in practical training). My landings are generally good, and I don't float excessively.

 

With the goal of learning as much as possible, would you kindly share your most important lessons? I'm working hard to stay safe in this plane, and any wisdom you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[Paul Thomas]

The best wisdom I can share is to start practical training for the IR. First, that will be more time in the air during which you will continue to gain experience. More importantly, the IR is the best safety investment you can make; you will learn fundamental skill in operation of the airplane that will also apply to VFR flight. The procedures I learned during IR make me a better pilot. Lastly, the Bravo is a travelling airplane and the IR will be like a cheat code when it comes to travelling. The dirty secret is that it's easier to fly IFR than VFR, especially on longer trips.

[Pinecone]

Attend a Mooney Safety Foundation Pilot Proficiency Program.

https://www.mooneysafety.com/proficiency-programs/

 

[Raistlin]

Hey there @hazek!

I'm right about there with you in the process of getting confidence with my Bravo (but I am IR-rated already). Let me just note down some of the very important lessons of these first 50 hours with my plane, and let's compare notes :-)

1. As you noted, landing a Bravo requires speed and energy management; the beast is very efficient, so I needed to plan ahead and slow down early. That will be important for you also while flying an IFR approach, you'll see.
2. If you are on speed on final, landings are almost always great. If you are 5 knots faster you need to hold it and have runway for it. More than 5 knots call for a go around unless you are landing at the Space Shuttle facility.
3. Weird landing picture: flare 3 apparent degrees more and one full second later than my PA-28 picture got me to the right point with my landings. Staring down the runway from the line up position to fix in mind what "flat" looks like helped me dramatically.
4. More right rudder :-) I know it's a worn-out joke but in most situations I had to retrain to use the rudder much more than I did previously. I religiously set full right rudder trim for T/O and landing and it helps.
5. Speaking of trimming: she wants a lot of trimming, in particular while landing. 
6. (good) cross wind landings: still working on them, and even on here there's less useful material on those than on everything else; hints from experienced pilots would be appreciated
7. Engine management: honestly I found it reasonably easy, the G1000 maybe helps in that with all the parameters available at a glance... I think the key is not overthinking about it, honestly
8. There's a lot of things to look at in cruise, develop a flow and prioritize those that can really harm you
9. Checklists: the ones in the POH are really long and some points are debatable, for that reading through this forum has been incredibly helpful
10. Late go arounds - balked landings must be trained, the sequence of things is important, and I fumbled a bit before getting the hang of it
11. Sometimes there will be a sh*tty landing, that's okay as long as you either go around or recover by keeping the flare and adding power if needed, and NOT by pushing the nose down on instinct

[LANCECASPER]

On 4/22/2025 at 7:41 AM, Pinecone said:

Attend a Mooney Safety Foundation Pilot Proficiency Program.

https://www.mooneysafety.com/proficiency-programs/

 

That's a long flight from Luxembourg.

[Raistlin]

14 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

That's a long flight from Luxembourg.

Jokes aside, it would be great if that could be held in Europe at some point. I would very happily pay my share to make that happen!

[kortopates]

it was done in Germany about a decade ago. it’s doable again too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hazek]

I'd be happy to attend if were held in Europe yeah.

[kortopates]

I'd be happy to attend if were held in Europe yeah.

I can bring it up with my fellow directors to see what the consensus is but our cost would need to go up by approximately half the cost of round trip airfare between the US and Germany since we need an instructor for every 2 students. We had 28 students at our last one in Las Vegas but we can probably due it with half that many.
I have no idea what airfare is and what time of year would work best.


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[Raistlin]

On 4/27/2025 at 10:10 PM, kortopates said:

I can bring it up with my fellow directors to see what the consensus is but our cost would need to go up by approximately half the cost of round trip airfare between the US and Germany since we need an instructor for every 2 students. We had 28 students at our last one in Las Vegas but we can probably due it with half that many.
I have no idea what airfare is and what time of year would work best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Airfares are not crazy expensive if organized in advance (in Y, in C they are outrageous since after covid). 

Germany or France are most appealing due to the number of Mooney owners and the presence of the two Mooney service centers, but I can also offer up our arport in Milan (LIMB), runway 1080m/3600ft, hotel in front, three major airports to travel to. Our Aeroclub operates it, so we can figure out logistics and costs. I would love to see our apron full of Mooneys ☺️

[kortopates]

8 hours ago, Raistlin said:

Airfares are not crazy expensive if organized in advance (in Y, in C they are outrageous since after covid). 

Germany or France are most appealing due to the number of Mooney owners and the presence of the two Mooney service centers, but I can also offer up our arport in Milan (LIMB), runway 1080m/3600ft, hotel in front, three major airports to travel to. Our Aeroclub operates it, so we can figure out logistics and costs. I would love to see our apron full of Mooneys ☺️

Thanks for that, much appreciated. I notice its a single runway uncontrolled strip. Does it by chance have a separate taxiway so as to not require back taxing. It also appears to closed at night (unlit?). We do try to offer an evening flight for those that want to do some night currency.

We have been considering EDDE on the other side of the Alps. Its what we used last time about 13 years ago. Do you have an opinion on EDDE?

[Raistlin]

On 5/11/2025 at 8:27 PM, kortopates said:

Thanks for that, much appreciated. I notice its a single runway uncontrolled strip. Does it by chance have a separate taxiway so as to not require back taxing. It also appears to closed at night (unlit?). We do try to offer an evening flight for those that want to do some night currency.

We have been considering EDDE on the other side of the Alps. Its what we used last time about 13 years ago. Do you have an opinion on EDDE?

Confirm: single runway, closed at night. There is a separate taxiway, however some back tracking is required to position on rwy 18 (taxiway is at 2/3 of the strip)

No experience with EDDE, it’s 2hrs away so I would be just as happy to fly there

[Smith Fuqua]

I learned that landing a a slow speed is very important. Stall horn should be on at touchdown.

[Geoff]

On 4/25/2025 at 8:27 PM, LANCECASPER said:

That's a long flight from Luxembourg.

Rumor has it there may be one in Europe next year...

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Geoff said:

Rumor has it there may be one in Europe next year...

Which sort of started from this thread couple months ago.

[Jerry 5TJ]

On 5/11/2025 at 2:27 PM, kortopates said:

Thanks for that, much appreciated. I notice its a single runway uncontrolled strip. Does it by chance have a separate taxiway so as to not require back taxing. It also appears to closed at night (unlit?). We do try to offer an evening flight for those that want to do some night currency.

Night VFR is very limited in Italy. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

On 4/22/2025 at 6:11 AM, Raistlin said:

Hey there @hazek!

I'm right about there with you in the process of getting confidence with my Bravo (but I am IR-rated already). Let me just note down some of the very important lessons of these first 50 hours with my plane, and let's compare notes :-)

1. As you noted, landing a Bravo requires speed and energy management; the beast is very efficient, so I needed to plan ahead and slow down early. That will be important for you also while flying an IFR approach, you'll see.
2. If you are on speed on final, landings are almost always great. If you are 5 knots faster you need to hold it and have runway for it. More than 5 knots call for a go around unless you are landing at the Space Shuttle facility.
3. Weird landing picture: flare 3 apparent degrees more and one full second later than my PA-28 picture got me to the right point with my landings. Staring down the runway from the line up position to fix in mind what "flat" looks like helped me dramatically.
4. More right rudder :-) I know it's a worn-out joke but in most situations I had to retrain to use the rudder much more than I did previously. I religiously set full right rudder trim for T/O and landing and it helps.
5. Speaking of trimming: she wants a lot of trimming, in particular while landing. 
6. (good) cross wind landings: still working on them, and even on here there's less useful material on those than on everything else; hints from experienced pilots would be appreciated
7. Engine management: honestly I found it reasonably easy, the G1000 maybe helps in that with all the parameters available at a glance... I think the key is not overthinking about it, honestly
8. There's a lot of things to look at in cruise, develop a flow and prioritize those that can really harm you
9. Checklists: the ones in the POH are really long and some points are debatable, for that reading through this forum has been incredibly helpful
10. Late go arounds - balked landings must be trained, the sequence of things is important, and I fumbled a bit before getting the hang of it
11. Sometimes there will be a sh*tty landing, that's okay as long as you either go around or recover by keeping the flare and adding power if needed, and NOT by pushing the nose down on instinct

https://donkaye.com/landing-video

I did the video about 15 years ago (time flys) in the Mooney Bravo.  It's not in HD, but I did use 2 cameras; one behind the pilot's seat and a profile view on the ground.  As of today, I have 6,067 Bravo hours (total hours 13,014) in 33 years of Bravo ownership.  Many have found it useful.  It's short, but effective.  The main purpose of making it was to help people learn to land their Mooney and save on increased insurance costs by not having bounced landings and prop strikes.

The average pilot should be able to land the Bravo in 20 knots direct crosswind and the more experienced pilot in at least 35 knots direct crosswind.  My maximum crosswind landing has been 45 knots.  Please don't go out and try that without flying with an experienced Mooney specific instructor.

I think it is a myth that Mooneys are difficult to land.  Usually if a person is having trouble, they are coming in with excess speed and/or not on the proper slope.  Approach on speed and on slope and a good landing should be made every time.

For those having some difficulty (in any Mooney airplane) I highly recommend the Landing Height System by Microkits with callouts down to 1 foot when properly calibrated.

[Jeff Uphoff]

6 hours ago, donkaye, MCFI said:

https://donkaye.com/landing-video

I did the video about 15 years ago (time flys) in the Mooney Bravo.  It's not in HD, but I did use 2 cameras; one behind the pilot's seat and a profile view on the ground.  As of today, I have I have 6,067 Bravo hours (total hours 13,014) in 33 years of Bravo ownership.  Many have found it useful.  It's short, but effective.  The main purpose of making it was to help people learn to land their Mooney and save on increased insurance costs from bounced landings and prop strikes.

The average pilot should be able to land the Bravo in 20 knots direct crosswind and the more experienced pilot in at least 35 knots direct crosswind.  My maximum crosswind landing has been 45 knots.  Please don't go out and try that without flying with an experienced Mooney specific instructor.

I think it is a myth that Mooneys are difficult to land.  Usually if a person is having trouble, they are coming in with excess speed and/or not on the proper slope.  Approach on speed and on slope and a good landing should be made every time.

For those having some difficulty (in any Mooney airplane) I highly recommend the Landing Height System by Microkits with callouts down to 1 foot when properly calibrated.

Don,

I'm guessing everything you say here and in your video also applies to the Ovation, save for any manifold-pressure settings you might happen to mention in the video.

(I landed my old 231 once in a direct crosswind gusting well into the 30s. That was exciting! Haven't had to deal with more than 20s in my Ovation yet...)

About to break 2000 Mooney hours here and approaching 500 in my Ovation. Also about to order that video.

--Up.

[donkaye, MCFI]

8 hours ago, Jeff Uphoff said:

Don,

I'm guessing everything you say here and in your video also applies to the Ovation, save for any manifold-pressure settings you might happen to mention in the video.

Actually, it applies to any small GA airplane regardless of type.  Crosswind landings were not demonstrated due to lack of crosswinds that day, but crosswind landing are fun as long as you remember, "Rudder for directional control, Aileron for drift" applied appropriately simultaneously.

[Raistlin]

On 6/14/2025 at 2:44 AM, Jerry 5TJ said:

Night VFR is very limited in Italy. 

As in “basically impossible”