Bad News from the FAA regarding Landing Gear Actuator (Gear Set)

[Matthew P]

5 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I always thought that Dukes made the original 20:1 gears and Mooney designed the 40:1 retrofit gear set. Does anyone know for certain if this is the case?

 I'm talking to the company that bought out Dukes, still waiting to hear back

[Paul Thomas]

2 hours ago, Shiroyuki said:

I talked to a friend of mine who is a design approve representative for TC here in canada.

he says it is possible to measure the gear, draw it in 3d cad, then do metal testing to determine the material and manufacturing process, then require approval from transport canada for PDA, which is equal to US PMA. Then the part need to be manufactured by an approved manufacturer. The problem is how much demand there is for these gears. Obviously it cost money for the initial investment, so no one would want to lose money on it.

Schllc stated in another thread that he has gears made for something else in Columbia. The price was reasonable.

I don't buy that these gears have to be expensive... but I do believe that they will be!

[Matthew P]

12 minutes ago, Paul Thomas said:

Schllc stated in another thread that he has gears made for something else in Columbia. The price was reasonable.

I don't buy that these gears have to be expensive... but I do believe that they will be!

If Lasar gets them guaranteed a 900-1000% markup like backsprings

[Shiroyuki]

1 hour ago, Matthew P said:

If Lasar gets them guaranteed a 900-1000% markup like backsprings

That’s ransom… hand us the money or your beloved plane won’t fly..

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Shiroyuki said:

That’s ransom… hand us the money or your beloved plane won’t fly..

EXACTLY!

The new owners of LASAR don't have the same sense of 'community' as Paul Lowen, that's for sure.

[Shiroyuki]

3 hours ago, Matthew P said:

I had a set of new gears scanned, measured and have the CAD files as well as the Rockwell Hardness testing of the gears

I'm going to have a more detailed conversation with my friend regarding getting this part PDA'd. We will potentially look into the cost and where to get it made.

I think it is very far fetched as the initial cost is probably going to be significant and I doubt a lot of people will be buying them.

My friend owns a company that issues design approval and modification, so this is mostly within his scope of work.

He did mention in order for them to design this part, they have to get their hand onto a few existing actuator and measure the dimension themself, and come up with a tolerance as well. I'm not an engineer (no where close) so I'm not sure how all these steps are going to work. He says he cannot accept 3d drawing from unknown source... So as the metal testing. But I suppose and existing 3d model and test can be helpful.

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, PT20J said:

I always thought that Dukes made the original 20:1 gears and Mooney designed the 40:1 retrofit gear set. Does anyone know for certain if this is the case?

I don't know the history. I think the likely scenario is that Mooney was having a lot of gear failures, had a big meeting with Dukes and they all decided to to design a set of 40:1 replacement gears. I would just assume Dukes made the replacement gears. They were the gear guys after all.

[MikeOH]

On 12/27/2024 at 2:28 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

I don't know the history. I think the likely scenario is that Mooney was having a lot of gear failures, had a big meeting with Dukes and they all decided to to design a set of 40:1 replacement gears. I would just assume Dukes made the replacement gears. They were the gear guys after all.

Where are these “lot of gear failures?”  That’s the part of the history I’ve not seen. How many gear ups have actually been caused by the gears failing in a Dukes actuator? You’d think we could point to a few. It is an AD to inspect, after all. Not to mention that 40:1 set does NOT terminate the AD.

[cliffy]

Probably not as many full failures as there are "too worn out to use any more" due to not being disassembled and relubed as required over the years. With as little as they get used time and age have more to do with the grease drying out than anything else.

Its a simple formula.

Cheap annuals = no grease.

No grease- No gears 

No Mooney specific knowledge = no gears

No gears = No fly

Call it price gouging, call it airplane tax, call it all you want, but the end game is the same.

We fly antiques that no one wants to supply critical parts for due to legalities

Why are we surprised when a manufacturer doesn't want to support something more than a half century old anymore? Does Ford still supply parts for a 63 Fairlane? Does Chevy still make exact replacement parts for a 64 Corvette?  Most of our Mooneys are older than those flying them. 

We either cough up the money to do it ourselves OR the airplanes become beer cans (which they will eventually anyway) 

BTW we kill more airplanes by doing stupid stuff in them than get killed by no gears available. 

[MikeOH]

@cliffy

Thanks, that's been my gut feel for this 'issue' all along.  I keep up with the lube/inspect schedule and it's been all good, so far.  Near as I can tell from the absence of any log entries, I have the original gears...54 years old.

[Matthew P]

5 hours ago, cliffy said:

Probably not as many full failures as there are "too worn out to use any more" due to not being disassembled and relubed as required over the years. With as little as they get used time and age have more to do with the grease drying out than anything else.

Its a simple formula.

Cheap annuals = no grease.

No grease- No gears 

No Mooney specific knowledge = no gears

No gears = No fly

Call it price gouging, call it airplane tax, call it all you want, but the end game is the same.

We fly antiques that no one wants to supply critical parts for due to legalities

Why are we surprised when a manufacturer doesn't want to support something more than a half century old anymore? Does Ford still supply parts for a 63 Fairlane? Does Chevy still make exact replacement parts for a 64 Corvette?  Most of our Mooneys are older than those flying them. 

We either cough up the money to do it ourselves OR the airplanes become beer cans (which they will eventually anyway) 

BTW we kill more airplanes by doing stupid stuff in them than get killed by no gears available. 

Well, this is geared towards those not doing stupid stuff, that would like to continue flying without a gearset keeping us from doing so...some of your analogies are apples and oranges, Mooney admits that it's nothing more than a parts business at this point, states that it's there to supports it's customers, their largest base of customers are the ones flying aircraft older than the pilots flying them, part manufacturer waiting for Mooney to decide to run a batch, not asking them to resurrect anything that's not readily available, that the manufactures is ready to do....so Mooney, support your existing customers as you state your current and only remaining charter is, or...continue the slow and painful path to insolvency, like others before you.

[tony]

15 hours ago, Matthew P said:

Well, this is geared towards those not doing stupid stuff, that would like to continue flying without a gearset keeping us from doing so...some of your analogies are apples and oranges, Mooney admits that it's nothing more than a parts business at this point, states that it's there to supports it's customers, their largest base of customers are the ones flying aircraft older than the pilots flying them, part manufacturer waiting for Mooney to decide to run a batch, not asking them to resurrect anything that's not readily available, that the manufactures is ready to do....so Mooney, support your existing customers as you state your current and only remaining charter is, or...continue the slow and painful path to insolvency, like others before you.

Well said!  Because I don't feel supported.  I feel Mooney is a hinderance.

[Grant_Waite]

I’ll put this out there to anyone since Byron is a busy man. Byron and I are the only 2 people that I know in this century to convert a J model with the dukes, to the Eaton actuator and newer emergency extension. Byron did his plane about 2 years ago and I just did mine in October. He’s the only one I’d trust to do this job. It’s no easy feat and if you haven’t done it before, you’re not going to get it done as efficiently and cost effectively. The reason I did this in mine is because I was having gear issue but it related to emergency extension cable being jammed in the back of my gear motor. I thus decided not to pay McFarlane 3k for a new cable since the gear motor could become a massive paper weight and leave me aog at anytime. I bought my Eaton form lasar for 11k, the brakets and idler pulleys from bas and another salvage company and all the hardware from Spruce. Call it 12k in parts and it was 2000-2500 to have it installed by Bryon. That was with me helping out since I flew up from Florida and wasn’t going home until it was finished. Everything has been flawless and I couldn’t be happier with how it turned out. Lasar raised the prices for the actuators from 10k to 16k now. Not 2 months after I bought mine, did they do this. You can get a Eaton every once in a while for 6-7k but you’ll want to have it IRAN by Lasar or someone who knows wtf they’re doing. I know this is hard to swallow for a lot of us older Mooney owners, but I don’t see what other option you have if you become aog from the dukes or emergency cable needing parts. This is why though you can find a G1000 ovation for cheaper than other plane with a g1000 on the market. The value of a Mooney is enticing to so many people but it’s that way for a reason. Total lack of support by Mooney and extreme price gouging on remaining parts supplies has driven down the value of all airframes. 
 

I’m with everyone on all these frustrations and personally wouldn’t tell anyone who’s interested in a Mooney to buy one. Go look at any airplane that still supported there’s quite a few but cirrus mainly come to mind for me. If you are dead set and won’t get anything but a Mooney buy the newest model you can afford. Even still I’d say a good 80% of the plane is made up of parts that you’ll never be able to get eventually if Mooney keeps down this path. We’re probably talking a good 20 or more years before that happens. Mooneys are so unique and unlike most other airframes, use Mooney specific parts you won’t find on a textron, cirrus, or diamond. The uniqueness in ways is what makes them a great plane. I will not argue that a Mooney is and probably always will be the safest, strongest GA plane ever built. The fact that a J model can fly into a high voltage tower and the owner can walk away speaks volumes to the strength of the air frame. 
Feel free to pm me if you have any questions 

[cliffy]

I'm going to add again-

If gears are the issue one can always hire a DER and make their own gears. 

All it takes is $$$$$$$$$$$

[MikeOH]

33 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I'm going to add again-

If gears are the issue one can always hire a DER and make their own gears. 

All it takes is $$$$$$$$$$$

Frankly, that's my plan when mine are shot.  I suspect it will be a lower cost approach than buying a used actuator, of unknown remaining life, for $10,000!

[Matthew P]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

I'm going to add again-

If gears are the issue one can always hire a DER and make their own gears. 

All it takes is $$$$$$$$$$$

Well, how about you send some of that $$$$$$$ my way so I can hire a DER to help us out

[MikeOH]

19 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

Well, how about you send some of that $$$$$$$ my way so I can hire a DER to help us out

I've never been sure how that really works, legally.  Say, you or I pay to have a DER approve a design for a new ab initio gear set and then legally produce an OPP for our individual aircraft. All legal.

Now, if we share that DER data to others, is it legal to use as a basis for their OPPs?  Not just from FAA legal, but would the DER have any claim of IP rights?  I.e., he 'sold' his service for an INDIVIDUAL use, not for a group?

[cliffy]

Its only good for "your" airplane. 

The DER has the rights and knowledge and can repeat what he did for others I'm sure for a fee.

You have to remember its OPP  not for sale to others or other airplanes.

[Matthew P]

18 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I've never been sure how that really works, legally.  Say, you or I pay to have a DER approve a design for a new ab initio gear set and then legally produce an OPP for our individual aircraft. All legal.

Now, if we share that DER data to others, is it legal to use as a basis for their OPPs?  Not just from FAA legal, but would the DER have any claim of IP rights?  I.e., he 'sold' his service for an INDIVIDUAL use, not for a group?

I will contact a DER and ask the questions and let y'all know

[Grant_Waite]

If you’re fine with your plane being down for months or who knows how long then yeah go ahead and do the der but if you have the money and it’s your forever plane the quickest solution is to convert probably. It’s still not easy but if you want your plane airworthy again you’ll make it happen like I did. 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Grant_Waite said:

If you’re fine with your plane being down for months or who knows how long then yeah go ahead and do the der but if you have the money and it’s your forever plane the quickest solution is to convert probably. It’s still not easy but if you want your plane airworthy again you’ll make it happen like I did. 

While you make a good point, I don't see how converting back to manual gear is going to be any less expensive or time consuming.  Sure, if you gather all the parts up before hand and get your mechanic scheduled in advance (I'd think converting to manual gear is more than 8 hours!) your down time could be minimized. But, that assumes one wouldn't wait for the electric gears to wear out.

No reason I couldn't do the same and have a DER design done and gears made BEFORE mine fail.  And, swapping the gears is going to be a whole lot QUICKER than converting back to manual. 

[Matthew P]

2 hours ago, Grant_Waite said:

If you’re fine with your plane being down for months or who knows how long then yeah go ahead and do the der but if you have the money and it’s your forever plane the quickest solution is to convert probably. It’s still not easy but if you want your plane airworthy again you’ll make it happen like I did. 

My plane isn't down, trying to get everything done before my next inspection in 100hrs, that way if it fails, I have a solution..

[Echo]

55 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

My plane isn't down, trying to get everything done before my next inspection in 100hrs, that way if it fails, I have a solution..

Didn't you buy that refurbed actuator that was recently listed on Mooneyspace?  You should be good to go, right?

[Matthew P]

1 hour ago, Echo said:

Didn't you buy that refurbed actuator that was recently listed on Mooneyspace?  You should be good to go, right?

I did not...

[Grant_Waite]

On 1/31/2025 at 6:50 PM, MikeOH said:

While you make a good point, I don't see how converting back to manual gear is going to be any less expensive or time consuming.  Sure, if you gather all the parts up before hand and get your mechanic scheduled in advance (I'd think converting to manual gear is more than 8 hours!) your down time could be minimized. But, that assumes one wouldn't wait for the electric gears to wear out.

No reason I couldn't do the same and have a DER design done and gears made BEFORE mine fail.  And, swapping the gears is going to be a whole lot QUICKER than converting back to manual. 

I don’t mean converting to manual gear, I mean doing the Eaton swap. Converting to manual gear would most definitely be more difficult for parts and getting someone to do it