Oil Change & Positive Outcome

[bigmo]

Still getting used to my new-ish to me F. As far as I can tell, the plane has had Aeroshell since the Penn Yan rebuild (about 580 hours now). Oil usage with Aeroshell was about a quart per 10 hours. No concerns, but my oil temps during long climbs was a bit of a concern. I'd see 210F if climbing 8K or more and I'd slow my climb rate a bit for the last few thousands of feet if going up to 11K-14K. One item to note that if I filled past 7 on the stick, it'd reduce fairly quickly to 6.25 - 6.5 and that's where my regular oil burn numbers started from. While OAT temps have a little impact, my numbers are pretty consistent regardless of OAT (unless it's crazy hot or crazy cold).

For no particular reason, I decided to give Phillips a shot. It was a bit cheaper, but cost wasn't really a factor. My mechanic topped it off at 7.5 qt on the stick. I checked it before a long XC for Thanksgiving and thought "I'll see you later on the belly".

First flight, was low (4K and 5K) due to crazy winds, so I didn't really get too excited that my climb temp maxed out at 185F. Plane was perfect on the 500 mile trip. Easy peasy. Flash forward a few days and it's time to come home. I checked the oil and expected to see that quart missing and on my belly. Nope. Right where I checked it before leaving home. If it dropped at all, it was impossible to see. Departed and departure asked me to expedite climb due to some USAF training under me, so I kept 1000 fpm all the way to cruise. This time, temps caught my eye. Quickly up to 185F and then stayed there all the way to cruise. Leveled off, got configured and temps settled in at 180F the whole flight.

For grins, checked the oil again. Still sitting at 7.5 qt. So almost 8 hours of engine time - arguably just two XCs, but 8 hours nonetheless and negligible oil usage (at least that I can see).

MORE important to me is that my climb oil temps dropped - a lot. I was just about to have my A&P see if he had any suggestions.

Has anyone else made a brand switch and noticed something so significant? Of course, time will tell if this holds. But so far, things are looking REALLY good with Phillips. My theory (speculating) is that the lower temps are due to just having more oil. Why it's not burning off the extra 1.5 quarts initially like other changes is a mystery. But, wildly guessing.

[Ragsf15e]

56 minutes ago, bigmo said:

Still getting used to my new-ish to me F. As far as I can tell, the plane has had Aeroshell since the Penn Yan rebuild (about 580 hours now). Oil usage with Aeroshell was about a quart per 10 hours. No concerns, but my oil temps during long climbs was a bit of a concern. I'd see 210F if climbing 8K or more and I'd slow my climb rate a bit for the last few thousands of feet if going up to 11K-14K. One item to note that if I filled past 7 on the stick, it'd reduce fairly quickly to 6.25 - 6.5 and that's where my regular oil burn numbers started from. While OAT temps have a little impact, my numbers are pretty consistent regardless of OAT (unless it's crazy hot or crazy cold).

For no particular reason, I decided to give Phillips a shot. It was a bit cheaper, but cost wasn't really a factor. My mechanic topped it off at 7.5 qt on the stick. I checked it before a long XC for Thanksgiving and thought "I'll see you later on the belly".

First flight, was low (4K and 5K) due to crazy winds, so I didn't really get too excited that my climb temp maxed out at 185F. Plane was perfect on the 500 mile trip. Easy peasy. Flash forward a few days and it's time to come home. I checked the oil and expected to see that quart missing and on my belly. Nope. Right where I checked it before leaving home. If it dropped at all, it was impossible to see. Departed and departure asked me to expedite climb due to some USAF training under me, so I kept 1000 fpm all the way to cruise. This time, temps caught my eye. Quickly up to 185F and then stayed there all the way to cruise. Leveled off, got configured and temps settled in at 180F the whole flight.

For grins, checked the oil again. Still sitting at 7.5 qt. So almost 8 hours of engine time - arguably just two XCs, but 8 hours nonetheless and negligible oil usage (at least that I can see).

MORE important to me is that my climb oil temps dropped - a lot. I was just about to have my A&P see if he had any suggestions.

Has anyone else made a brand switch and noticed something so significant? Of course, time will tell if this holds. But so far, things are looking REALLY good with Phillips. My theory (speculating) is that the lower temps are due to just having more oil. Why it's not burning off the extra 1.5 quarts initially like other changes is a mystery. But, wildly guessing.

There have been some people notice different burn rates switching oil types, but it seems switching either direction has just as many people noticing a difference (xc - aeroshell or vice versa)!  I hadn’t heard much about temps changing from switching.  I will say this - it’s common (and normal) to use less when the oil is brand new/clean in there. As it gets older, expect to use more.  I also think you’ll still find that extra qt on the belly.  Fwiw, we have the debate a lot, but xc with camguard was great for mine.

[McMooney]

flying my birdy this weekend, i was going to have my ia see how to get my oil temps up to > 200.   damn things were maybe 180 ish this weekend

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, McMooney said:

flying my birdy this weekend, i was going to have my ia see how to get my oil temps up to > 200.   damn things were maybe 180 ish this weekend

If it is in the green arc on your oil temp gauge then you're fine.   The indicated temp is the temperature coming out of the cooler or the bypass from the vernatherm.    It's much hotter returning to the sump.

[Echo]

Glad to hear this.  I use Phillips X/C and have been pleasantly surprised by the lack of oil usage, remaining "new" looking oil for many hours and cool temps in climb and cruise with my E/J clone.  I climb at 120MPH and with cowl flaps barely open I do NOT see oil temps over 200 ever and cylinder temps ALL below 350.  Maybe just benefit of a low time well built and set up engine?

[Yetti]

Is your oil cooler in the front or back?      What I have noticed is that New Oil stays in the crankcase longer than older oil.    I use W100 cause I live in the south.

[Echo]

3 hours ago, Yetti said:

Is your oil cooler in the front or back?      What I have noticed is that New Oil stays in the crankcase longer than older oil.    I use W100 cause I live in the south.

Back.

[Fritz1]

I switched from Shell W100 plus to Phillips XC and saw a significant reduction in oil consumption and less plug fouling, my AP/IA is suspicious that the XC might be coking up the exhaust valve guides, and swears by the W100 plus. I am undecided, maybe run the 100plus in summer and the Phillips in winter. If the valve guide story were true, oil consumption should go back up slowly again with the Shell since the carbon in the valve guides slowly wears off. Thoughts?

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Fritz1 said:

I switched from Shell W100 plus to Phillips XC and saw a significant reduction in oil consumption and less plug fouling, my AP/IA is suspicious that the XC might be coking up the exhaust valve guides, and swears by the W100 plus. I am undecided, maybe run the 100plus in summer and the Phillips in winter. If the valve guide story were true, oil consumption should go back up slowly again with the Shell since the carbon in the valve guides slowly wears off. Thoughts?

X/C 20W-50 and Shell W100 Plus are both mineral oil based. X/C is thinner with viscosity index improvers (VII). Why would one coke exhaust valve guides more than the other? The Plus in the Shell oil signifies that it has the LW-16702 anti scuff additive mixed in so you don't have to add it. If you want that and desire the Phillips product, you can use Phillips Victory instead of X/C.

Phillips claims that X/C improves oil consumption compared to straight weight oil. The theory is that the VII increase the viscosity well above 50 weight on the hot cylinder walls and reduce the amount of oil getting past the rings into the combustion chamber. My oil consumption on a rebuilt IO-360 with about 100 hours on it went from 8 hr/qt with 100W to 12 hr/qt with X/C.

[201Mooniac]

I hadn’t previously heard about the improvement in oil consumption.  I’ve been using 100W+ in my IO-360 for 1650 hours SFRM and just recently noticed my oil consumption has gone from 1 qt in 12 hours to about 1 qt in 10 hours, I hadn’t considered changing oils at all but if the consumption gets any worse, I’l talk to my A&P about maybe switching for a test.

[Fritz1]

Thanks, that is what I was hoping for, got 6 cases of XC 20/W50 in my hangar, my AP/IA is an old salt, ran a fleet of Robinson helicopters with Lycoming engines for a while and says he was reaming exhaust valve guides unless using the W100plus, maybe OWT and he never really tried the XC, I will keep using it because it really reduced my oil consumption by at least 30%

[Danb]

Or you can save money like the previous owner of my Acclaim did and wait 18 months to change the oil, the plus I managed to get a new top based on negligence. Must have save 500-750 in oil changes along with all new cylinders. BTW it was quite yucky.

Oil is cheap why do some skip filter changes or change the filter every three oil changes. 
 

I must be doing something wrong

 

D

[NewMoon]

On 12/1/2024 at 10:50 PM, bigmo said:

Still getting used to my new-ish to me F. As far as I can tell, the plane has had Aeroshell since the Penn Yan rebuild (about 580 hours now). Oil usage with Aeroshell was about a quart per 10 hours. No concerns, but my oil temps during long climbs was a bit of a concern. I'd see 210F if climbing 8K or more and I'd slow my climb rate a bit for the last few thousands of feet if going up to 11K-14K. One item to note that if I filled past 7 on the stick, it'd reduce fairly quickly to 6.25 - 6.5 and that's where my regular oil burn numbers started from. While OAT temps have a little impact, my numbers are pretty consistent regardless of OAT (unless it's crazy hot or crazy cold).

For no particular reason, I decided to give Phillips a shot. It was a bit cheaper, but cost wasn't really a factor. My mechanic topped it off at 7.5 qt on the stick. I checked it before a long XC for Thanksgiving and thought "I'll see you later on the belly".

First flight, was low (4K and 5K) due to crazy winds, so I didn't really get too excited that my climb temp maxed out at 185F. Plane was perfect on the 500 mile trip. Easy peasy. Flash forward a few days and it's time to come home. I checked the oil and expected to see that quart missing and on my belly. Nope. Right where I checked it before leaving home. If it dropped at all, it was impossible to see. Departed and departure asked me to expedite climb due to some USAF training under me, so I kept 1000 fpm all the way to cruise. This time, temps caught my eye. Quickly up to 185F and then stayed there all the way to cruise. Leveled off, got configured and temps settled in at 180F the whole flight.

For grins, checked the oil again. Still sitting at 7.5 qt. So almost 8 hours of engine time - arguably just two XCs, but 8 hours nonetheless and negligible oil usage (at least that I can see).

MORE important to me is that my climb oil temps dropped - a lot. I was just about to have my A&P see if he had any suggestions.

Has anyone else made a brand switch and noticed something so significant? Of course, time will tell if this holds. But so far, things are looking REALLY good with Phillips. My theory (speculating) is that the lower temps are due to just having more oil. Why it's not burning off the extra 1.5 quarts initially like other changes is a mystery. But, wildly guessing.

20/50 is the best in my opinion

[Pinecone]

I know a guy in the Cardinal world that spent his entire career as a petroleum engineer and has been flying for decades.

His advice for my Mooney and CAP-10 is the same.  Philips XC 20W-50 and CamGuard.

[jlunseth]

Probably everybody knows this, but if you fill the oil to, say, 7qts and then go out and run the engine, it will be 6 qts more or less when you come back. This affect lasts for more than 24 hours in my aircraft. If you let the plane sit for a few days and come back it will be 7 qts again. The reason is that running the engine distributes oil throughout the engine. Once the engine is turned off that oil begins to slowly drain back to the sump, where it is measured by the dipstick. The point is, if you are checking your oil consumption, either do it consistently right after landing, or consistently after letting the plane sit for a couple of days and then checking before you run the engine. One way or the other.

I have a couple thousand hours of using XC in my plane. No complaints.

[Pinecone]

My experience, it depends on the engine.  My TSIO-360 needs overnight to get a valid oil reading.

On Lycomings, it seems they are fine with a few minutes.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

My experience, it depends on the engine.  My TSIO-360 needs overnight to get a valid oil reading.

On Lycomings, it seems they are fine with a few minutes.

Not my Lycoming.  Io-360A1a.  It’s just as @jlunseth said, at least 24 hours after running before it is a good read.  Id say it goes up 1/2 to 3/4 qt between checking it right after flying and a day (or more later)

[EricJ]

8 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Not my Lycoming.  Io-360A1a.  It’s just as @jlunseth said, at least 24 hours after running before it is a good read.  Id say it goes up 1/2 to 3/4 qt between checking it right after flying and a day (or more later)

This is also why doing oil changes cold gets more of the old oil out.   If you change it hot, that additional 1/2 to 3/4 qt may not be back in the sump yet.   Some of that oil is in the filter, so changing the filter will get it (as it spills on the accessory case), but some of it is just taking its time draining back from the heads, cam, accessory case, etc.   

Letting it drain overnight or longer gives it a better chance to get everything out of the case, filter, and sump.

I've always wondered what warming it up before changing it is supposed to accomplish.   It just gaurantees that it'll take longer to drain the case and filter.    

[Will.iam]

Putting a quart of MMO right before warming up the oil with a quick flight will make it drain quicker. I was under the assumption that running the engine made sure all the gunk was mixed up in the oil suspended and not settled out in the bottom of the oil pan but maybe an OWT. I start the oil drain and leave it draining for a day or 2 so most if not all the oil is out of the engine with it thinned out. Also much easier to remove that oil filter after the engine and oil filter have cooled down than when it’s hot. I do add mouse milk to the turbo while it’s still hot to help the penetrating oil wick in better. 

[A64Pilot]

The purpose of running an engine until the oil is hot before draining is to mix the sludge and junk that settles out over hours so it will drain with the oil.

The drain is not at the absolute bottom, if it were then it might not be as important to get the oil hot first.

Anyone that has ever pulled a constant speed prop has seen the sludge, unfortunately as the oil in the prop is a dead end without any flow the sludge builds up over time.

Probably because of the lead, sludge is a real thing in our engines, even with a short change interval.

180F is plenty hot, because we don’t measure where the oil is hottest.

This is what Lycoming says about oil temp. Remember everything in the engine excepting the heads and possibly the cylinder is oil cooled. Temps above 200 is not desirable

 

Edited Saturday at 01:02 AM by A64Pilot