What speeds do you use for gear extension and approach flaps?

[kortopates]

47 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

The M20R POH says this:

”Do not exceed this speed with the flaps in the full down position”. It says nothing about the T/O position.

Further the MPPP is training the same way as I submitted and for the same reasons.

The limitation only applies to full down.

 

 

This is most misinterpreted limitation in the POH.

In order to have a higher limit for partial flaps, don't you think they would specify a an amount of flaps and a higher airspeed?

See the J models - the only Mooney's that have an approved higher partial flaps air speed limitation and its only for a small range of serial numbers, which are not even the last ones produced. After 34-3078, with the introduction of the 28V J's they went right back to single flap speed limitation. 

 

You won't find any such higher partial flaps speed in any other Mooney including the R, they all look like your R:

 

[kortopates]

On 9/25/2024 at 6:19 AM, Max Clark said:

The guy I bought the plane from made it a point that I am now the one paying to fix things, so even though V_LO is 140 KIAS he made it a point to always be *much* slower than that.

Very true, as the guy that's not only paying the bills but doing all the work, after repairing most of connecting rods in my gear doors, all with enlarged openings (mine has 3 gear doors per side). I have since reduced my gear down speed to 110-120 kts from 140. Occasionally If I am getting slam dunked I may exceed 120, but my norm is 110-120. That's going to be challenge for a new Mooney pilot but it doesn't take that long to be able to get it slowed down without the gear and then the gear will thank you for it.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

The M20R POH says this:

”Do not exceed this speed with the flaps in the full down position”. It says nothing about the T/O position.

Further the MPPP is training the same way as I submitted and for the same reasons.

The limitation only applies to full down.

 

 

 

So, according to your read, T/O flaps are ok up to 194 KIAS?

[GeeBee]

17 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

So, according to your read, T/O flaps are ok up to 194 KIAS?

 

17 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

So, according to your read, T/O flaps are ok up to 194 KIAS?

No, 173

[201Mooniac]

I try to be below 120 (typically 110-115) before dropping the gear and start with partial flaps at 100 which gets me quickly to 90 for full flaps.  I try to be kind to my plane and this just feels right.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

 

No, 173

Based on....? I don't get the regulatory connection between the max "smooth air" speed and a flap limitation unless the air is not smooth.  Is there one? 

 

[GeeBee]

3 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Based on....? I don't get the regulatory connection between the max "smooth air" speed and a flap limitation unless the air is not smooth.  Is there one? 

 

Maximum structural speed, by definition.

[GeeBee]

Some of the same people here have been saying different things over the years.

 

[Fly Boomer]

8 hours ago, kortopates said:

Very true, as the guy that's not only paying the bills but doing all the work, after repairing most of connecting rods in my gear doors, all with enlarged openings (mine has 3 gear doors per side). I have since reduced my gear down speed to 110-120 kts from 140. Occasionally If I am getting slam dunked I may exceed 120, but my norm is 110-120. That's going to be challenge for a new Mooney pilot but it doesn't take that long to be able to get it slowed down without the gear and then the gear will thank you for it.

Do give the speed brakes some slack as well?  Or just deploy at any speed?

[kortopates]

Do give the speed brakes some slack as well?  Or just deploy at any speed?

No, speed brakes aren’t an issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[donkaye]

20 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

So, according to your read, T/O flaps are ok up to 194 KIAS?

Alsolutely---NOT!  ANY flap extension should be below the White Arc.  A number of years ago I had the same question so had a long discussion with Tom Bowen, Chief Engineer at the time.  While I can't remember everything he told me, the basic issue was torsion and loads throughout the CG  range of the plane.  They did do tests showing that approach flaps could be extended below gear speed in the long body, but never got it approved.  So, if you forget to retract the flaps on takeoff you are not likely to do damage to the flaps if you're below gear speed, but they are not approved for extension above the white arc, notwithstanding apparently some J models.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

Alsolutely---NOT!  ANY flap extension should be below the White Arc.  A number of years ago I had the same question so had a long discussion with Tom Bowen, Chief Engineer at the time.  While I can't remember everything he told me, the basic issue was torsion and loads throughout the CG  range of the plane.  They did do tests showing that approach flaps could be extended below gear speed in the long body, but never got it approved.  So, if you forget to retract the flaps on takeoff you are not likely to do damage to the flaps, but they are not approved for extension above the white arc, notwithstanding apparently some J models.

I was hoping you would step into the discussion. Thank you for confirming that. 

[GeeBee]

On 9/28/2024 at 3:21 AM, donkaye said:

Alsolutely---NOT!  ANY flap extension should be below the White Arc.  A number of years ago I had the same question so had a long discussion with Tom Bowen, Chief Engineer at the time.  While I can't remember everything he told me, the basic issue was torsion and loads throughout the CG  range of the plane.  They did do tests showing that approach flaps could be extended below gear speed in the long body, but never got it approved.  So, if you forget to retract the flaps on takeoff you are not likely to do damage to the flaps if you're below gear speed, but they are not approved for extension above the white arc, notwithstanding apparently some J models.

So what you are saying is officially, white arc for all flap speeds but unofficially Mooney has said up to gear speed. But officially in the M20R POH they say the white arc applies to full flaps but we know not what for T/O flaps except for unofficially. Great way to run engineering.

[LANCECASPER]

Thankfully they finally cleared it up in the POH for the Acclaim Ultra and Ovation Ultra:


“Wing Flaps (below 110 KIAS in all extended positions)”
 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

So what you are saying is officially, white arc for all flap speeds but unofficially Mooney has said up to gear speed. But officially in the M20R POH they say the white arc applies to full flaps but we know not what for T/O flaps except for unofficially. Great way to run engineering.

No.  Any and all flaps only below the white arc.  I just said that you may not harm the flaps if you accidentally had approach flaps below gear speed.  It's not something you should deliberately do.  I just gave a little background.  A number of high performance airplanes and jets permit approach flaps above gear speed.  Mooney doesn't permit it until below the white arc.

[GeeBee]

9 minutes ago, donkaye said:

No.  Any and all flaps only below the white arc.  I just said that you may not harm the flaps if you accidentally had approach flaps below gear speed.  It's not something you should deliberately do.  I just gave a little background.  A number of high performance airplanes and jets permit approach flaps above gear speed.  Mooney doesn't permit it until below the white arc.

Would you not agree the POH wording, "Do not exceed this speed with the flaps in the full down position" is misleading? Should it not be "Do not exceed this speed with the flaps extended"?

 

[LANCECASPER]

Would you not agree the POH wording, "Do not exceed this speed with the flaps in the full down position" is misleading? Should it not be "Do not exceed this speed with the flaps extended"?
 

It was misleading and thankfully they have changed it in the Ultra POH.




If they had the resources they should go back and make POH revisions to correct it for the rest of us.

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Would you not agree the POH wording, "Do not exceed this speed with the flaps in the full down position" is misleading? Should it not be "Do not exceed this speed with the flaps extended"?

 

Yes, which is why I asked Tom in the first place.

[GeeBee]

Usually, POH's are reviewed and approved by the FAA. Looks like bad work all the way around.

 

[PT20J]

6 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Usually, POH's are reviewed and approved by the FAA. Looks like bad work all the way around.

 

The manufacturer is required to supply a Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) specific to each airplane delivered, and the FAA must approve the AFM.

The POH is a document that contains information specified in General Aviation Manufacturers Association Specification No. 1. The FAA does not approve a POH. If the POH and AFM are combined in a single document, the portions of the document that form the FAA Approved AFM must be identified. At the time that manufacturers begin using the POH format, I believe that the FAA began using the Part 23 requirements for the AFM content. According to 23.2620, for airplanes in Mooney's class, the only required content of the AFM is operating limitations.

If you look closely at the M20R POH/AFM, you'll see in the page footers for Section II LIMITATIONS the words "AIRPLANE FLIGHT MANUAL     FAA APPROVED." This footer does not appear in any other section and thus, Section II constitutes the entire AFM. 

[Ibra]

Why one would use T/O with speed higher than 110kts? they are useful for best L/D climb above obstacles on takeoff and slow flight for landing neither require huge speeds 

I can't see much of their use above 110kts? although, I only fly M20J and energy management is far easier than longer bodies...

The only case where I would need extra speed and extra drag is radar vectored ILS, sometimes ATC ask for high speeds to keep healthy sequencing, however, I go clean config (flapless with gear up) and drop everything from 3nm if weather is nice, there is no way to land from 150kts approach without gear (140) and full flap (110) on short finale. If weather is difficult, I make an early request for slow approch at 110kias with T/O flaps (also I sate "unable" if pushed into higher speeds, it's 5min at 140kias instead of 4min at 110kias from 10nm intercepts, even less with tight guidance)

I don't think they are designed for partial deployment above 110kts, especially, in gusty or turbulent conditions ! 

 

 

Edited September 30 by Ibra

[GeeBee]

9 hours ago, PT20J said:

The manufacturer is required to supply a Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) specific to each airplane delivered, and the FAA must approve the AFM.

The POH is a document that contains information specified in General Aviation Manufacturers Association Specification No. 1. The FAA does not approve a POH. If the POH and AFM are combined in a single document, the portions of the document that form the FAA Approved AFM must be identified. At the time that manufacturers begin using the POH format, I believe that the FAA began using the Part 23 requirements for the AFM content. According to 23.2620, for airplanes in Mooney's class, the only required content of the AFM is operating limitations.

If you look closely at the M20R POH/AFM, you'll see in the page footers for Section II LIMITATIONS the words "AIRPLANE FLIGHT MANUAL     FAA APPROVED." This footer does not appear in any other section and thus, Section II constitutes the entire AFM. 

If you notice, the section I posted is Section II. So the FAA approved that language.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Ibra said:

Why one would use T/O with speed higher than 110kts? they are useful for best L/D climb above obstacles on takeoff and slow flight for landing neither require huge speeds 

Two techniques I’ve seen fairly regularly.

1. Some pilots choose to deploy approach flaps before gear on instrument approaches.
2. It’s also common to drop gear will drop both gear and approach flaps at the same time and use that technique regardless of approach speed, so long as within Vlo. (I think we had an example of this earlier in the thread)

[Slick Nick]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Two techniques I’ve seen fairly regularly.

1. Some pilots choose to deploy approach flaps before gear on instrument approaches.
2. It’s also common to drop gear will drop both gear and approach flaps at the same time and use that technique regardless of approach speed, so long as within Vlo. (I think we had an example of this earlier in the thread)

First stage of flaps is VERY common on most aircraft types I’ve flown, from Pipers, to King Airs, to transport category jets. Even I admit, I had to wrap my head around the fact that the Mooney is a “gear before flaps” airplane. 
Perhaps this is why the idea meets with some resistance from new Mooney owners?

Edited September 30 by Slick Nick

[PT20J]

In the pattern in every light airplane I’ve flown I put the gear down mid-field downwind (before things get busy) and flaps down abeam the numbers when I begin a descent.

On an approach, I slow to 90 KIAS before the FAF and put in 15 deg flap one dot above the GS to (get the retrimming out of the way while level) and then gear down at GS intercept which adds enough drag to start down without a power or trim change.