Aileron authority

[Guest]

I am new to flying Mooneys, but have experience in almost all other major GA aircraft, lots of time in short wing pipers, Citabrias, and all the other flavors of spam cans. I have run out of rudder, and elevator trim in various loading configurations, and power settings, and speeds, but I have never run out of aileron. The other day, I slowed the Mooney to 1.3 vso fully configured, gear down etc. I caught a small updraft and just momentarily touched the stop on the aileron when counteracting it. Never seen this before on a light aircraft. The ailerons are rather small. Can anyone comment?  This is a good reason to only slow to ref over the runway threshold. I have found however, that excess speed is not your friend with this wing either…. It seems you can fly it on around 80 mph, but much more and I imagine one risks a 3 pointer. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I’ve never felt like I’ve run out of aileron authority.  But unless you did a barrel roll in that situation I’m not sure you have either.  The wing did come up at some point, right?  Maybe not as fast as you wanted but doesn’t sound like you flipped over.  

I personally don’t fly below 90 mph until I’m established on final, 80 short final, 75 over the numbers.  1.3 VSO would be 72 mph for me which I wouldn’t do anywhere except over a runway.  
 

You can also help a wing up with opposite rudder if you really did run out of aileron.  

[Guest]

The wing came up almost right as I hit the stop. I just found it remarkable as I have never hit an aileron stop in a light aircraft unless doing so intentionally in an aerobatic situation.  A good reason for not slowing to 72 until crossing the threshold…

[Shadrach]

When on approach, on windy days, in low level chop, I have used all of the aileron authority available. But that’s only happened a few times in 20 years of flying this airframe. Typically when going into short strips (<2000’) on windy days at slow speeds on short final (<65mph). For longer runways a little extra speed gives a little more authority. Mooneys have plenty of aileron under almost any condition you’re likely to encounter, 

I think 1.3vso (by weight) on final is excellent SOP (and so does the FAR/AIM). I try to be at 1.2 crossing the threshold or less for short field work. Far more Mooneys depart the runway environment due to excess energy on landing than fall out of the sky on final because of too little.

 

[Schllc]

Aside from landing and a MAPA PPP, I have never found a desire, much less a reason to fly that slow. 
Mooney’s are meant to go fast, why would one be tooling around that slow?

[Shadrach]

3 minutes ago, Kerrville said:

The wing came up almost right as I hit the stop. I just found it remarkable as I have never hit an aileron stop in a light aircraft unless doing so intentionally in an aerobatic situation.  A good reason for not slowing to 72 until crossing the threshold…

It’s not like you were going to go inverted. You hit a pocket of unstable air and came through it. It happens. You can increase speed in less stable conditions when runway length permits. Discontinuing the use of 1.3Vso as SOP is short sighted. Especially given that you were likely faster than 1.3Vso unless you were at max gross weight. There is too much RLOC in the Mooney community due to excess speed. 

[Guest]

I agree. Most pilots on all airframes fly final too fast, but you have a to be able to handle both fast and full stall, especially in the tail draggers I fly.  I don’t mean to suggest at all that 1.3vso is too slow, just never hit the stops there, albeit most of the small aircraft I fly have full span ailerons…

[Hank]

49 minutes ago, Kerrville said:

I agree. Most pilots on all airframes fly final too fast, but you have a to be able to handle both fast and full stall, especially in the tail draggers I fly.  I don’t mean to suggest at all that 1.3vso is too slow, just never hit the stops there, albeit most of the small aircraft I fly have full span ailerons…

Most of the airplanes you fly have more yoke rotation than the Mooney. 

[Joshua Blackh4t]

Can't recall hitting stops in my E and I practice short landings occasionally.

Come in at V = just above feeling mushy (about 65kts over the fence, normally)

However, she does like her combined aileron and rudder, so maybe thats why I never hit the stops.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

Aside from landing and a MAPA PPP, I have never found a desire, much less a reason to fly that slow. 
Mooney’s are meant to go fast, why would one be tooling around that slow?

You represent one part of the spectrum of the Mooney community.  Folks that I imagine are into, the latest and most sophisticated cockpits, built in O2 and 700nm legs. Dislikes include turf strips and uncontrolled airports with hoi polloi infesting the pattern. I understand the appeal but the spectrum of owners is pretty wide. Many Mooneys handle short strips/dirt/turf strips just fine and blend well enough with the Pietenpole puttering down final at 45kts. The airframe is efficient but it does other things well enough to branch out. I like landing on 1800’ feet of grass and eating lousy pancakes off paper plates with EAA guys just as much as I like sitting at a nice airport cafe listening to Bonanza owners measure each other's…fuel burn. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Kerrville said:

I agree. Most pilots on all airframes fly final too fast, but you have a to be able to handle both fast and full stall, especially in the tail draggers I fly.  I don’t mean to suggest at all that 1.3vso is too slow, just never hit the stops there, albeit most of the small aircraft I fly have full span ailerons…

@Hank makes a good point. It takes more control travel to hit the stops in most aircraft, substantially so. The Mooney has a relatively slow roll rate (I’d guess ~60° per second) coupled with short yoke throws. What sort of tail dragger‘s are you flying? Many of us enjoy TW flying.

[Guest]

Mostly Citabria/decathlon type and short wing pipers. 

[cbarry]

As others have alluded to, very few other aircraft that I know of, have a control wheel deflection, within the aileron range, that matches a Mooney.  I’m not a CFI, but sometimes simple items such as a “free and correct” controls check more than once during the pre takeoff are good reminders of the nuances when we may be switching between aircraft—just like the ground pitch attitude difference between the long body Mooneys and the mid and short bodies.

[Guest]

Yes, the Mooney’s yoke movement is unique. The airplane also seems outstandingly stable in pitch, once trimmed, compared to any other airplane that I have flown, although when displaced from level trim it goes through about 4 oscillations before damping out the phugoid tendency which is about normal.  (Perhaps this is owning to the whole empennage being what is trimmed.) 

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Kerrville said:

Mostly Citabria/decathlon type and short wing pipers. 

Same here, with some Chief, Champ and an hour or two of Stearman time thrown in for good measure,

[Guest]

I flew a stearman once. It was fun!  My first love is taildraggers, but the Mooney I just got was the only airplane to fit my current mission. 

[Pinecone]

I have a hour in a Great Lakes and a couple of hours in a CAP-10.  Some time in various Cubs (J-3, J-5, 115 and 150 Super Cubs), A good bit of time in Citabrias (7ECA, 7KCAB, 7GCBC) and Decathalons (both 150 and 180 versions).  A tiny bit of Pitts time.  Half hour in a Stearman.

There is a 7GCBC in the rental fleet at the FBO on my home field, so slowing increasing time in that.  And should be getting a LOT more CAP-10 time soon. ;D

 

[M20F]

The aileron in mine runs out at FL210

[Schllc]

Fun factoid that has always perplexed me a bit…..

a taildragger is much easier to land on an RC plane than tricycle gear, but this is not the case in real planes. 

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, Schllc said:

Fun factoid that has always perplexed me a bit…..

a taildragger is much easier to land on an RC plane than tricycle gear, but this is not the case in real planes. 

Yet all RC trainers I’ve ever seen and or had were nose draggers.

Mooney does have a slower roll rate and I believe less aileron authority than many aircraft, I’ve commented a couple of times on I believe the sports car like handling many attribute to it is from short control throws and not actual brisk handling in my opinion

My Maule was an early model M6, it was the most STOL capable Maule as it had the smaller lighter fuselage of the M5 but with the long wing of the later models.

If you hung it on the prop a little once you approached about 30 MPH the ailerons completely lost ALL effectiveness, you could literally roll full travel with little or no roll rate.

 You learned very quickly when getting slow that if a wing dropped to use rudder to raise it or you had an accident.

I often visit short grass strips, even an occasional ultra light park. Where I live the East / West runway due to slope has only about 1,000 ft usable when landing to the East so I’m often about mid 60’s on final and less than that on short final. The same rudder trick used on the Maule works on my J model, but also you want to use quite a bit anyway when slow to be sure to stay in trim, you don’t want to stall out of trim.

A J model anyway is surprisingly capable on short strips landing, the challenge can be getting out as a J isn’t over powered.

Later Models of the M6 added 6” in length to the ailerons by changing the wing tips so the wingspan and flap length stayed the same and I have been told they still had aileron control even when hanging on the prop.

I think a light short body Mooney if flown well would really surprise some people, just stay out of the rough stuff, the tiny nose wheel wouldn’t like it

[A64Pilot]

Oh, and at least on my Mooney there seems to be some “spring” in the push - pull tube to the aileron, you don’t notice if at all flying normally, but if you try an aggressive movement, especially at higher speed you will. I suspect the tube is actually flexing. I believe it could be cured with cutting the tube in half and fitting a bell crank but I guess as it’s not an issue flying normally they didn’t see the need.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Oh, and at least on my Mooney there seems to be some “spring” in the push - pull tube to the aileron, you don’t notice if at all flying normally, but if you try an aggressive movement, especially at higher speed you will. I suspect the tube is actually flexing. I believe it could be cured with cutting the tube in half and fitting a bell crank but I guess as it’s not an issue flying normally they didn’t see the need.

The aileron tubes are both normally in tension. Both ailerons create lift and are being forced up by air loads. Our wings make about (just guessing) 5 Lbs / sq foot of lift. So each aileron is about 4 sq feet. So that means there is about 20 Lbs pushing up on each aileron during flight. You would have to do the math on the hinge and bell crank arms to get the force on the aileron rods, but it is higher than you think. 
 

Both of those up forces are opposite and connected at the bell crank in the center of the belly. The only force we have to exert is the differential force on the ailerons.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Oh, and at least on my Mooney there seems to be some “spring” in the push - pull tube to the aileron, you don’t notice if at all flying normally, but if you try an aggressive movement, especially at higher speed you will. I suspect the tube is actually flexing. I believe it could be cured with cutting the tube in half and fitting a bell crank but I guess as it’s not an issue flying normally they didn’t see the need.

I’ve noticed something similar in the Cessnas. When aggressively rolling an aero at, it feels like the yoke goes more than 90 degrees but on the ground it doesn’t.  (I honestly haven’t looked at it with my eyes though. Just feeling it and it may be perceptual vice actual.)  Perhaps due to what @N201MKTurbo said about the lift of the ailerons that now you are opposing that as well. 

[A64Pilot]

Cessna is control wires, not sure what you’re getting with them. 

[A64Pilot]

25 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The aileron tubes are both normally in tension. Both ailerons create lift and are being forced up by air loads. Our wings make about (just guessing) 5 Lbs / sq foot of lift. So each aileron is about 4 sq feet. So that means there is about 20 Lbs pushing up on each aileron during flight. You would have to do the math on the hinge and bell crank arms to get the force on the aileron rods, but it is higher than you think. 
 

Both of those up forces are opposite and connected at the bell crank in the center of the belly. The only force we have to exert is the differential force on the ailerons.

 I think without looking that our wing loading is probably in the neighborhood of 15 lbs per sq ft. The variable is of course gross weight. Not all lift is equally distributed though and that’s where it gets over my head.

I think our wing loading is actually pretty low as we have more wing area than one would assume 

The aileron that drops of course is going down into much denser air and therefore creates adverse yaw, that's off set somewhat if we have Frise ailerons, I haven’t looked but it’s a Modern aircraft so surely it does, but anyway there is a significant difference in the force between ailerons or of course we would have zero control pressure.

I’m pretty sure I feel the tubes flex, I’m not saying that’s bad, just that it exists, I think. Be easy to demonstrate, just put a control lock on the aileron and see how much “spring” there is at the yoke, of course don’t get stupid and break something, but I bet the control system is very strong, I’ve seen the forces we had to Certify to and they were massive, easily exceeding my strength.