TLS BRAVO IO540 ENGINE REPLACEMENT

[Beau]

IS IT WORTH $50,000 MORE FOR A NEW LYCOMING IO540 THAN A FACTORY REBUILD TO FACTORY NEW SPECIFICATIONS?

Please consider the following:

1. The engines can only be rebuilt so many times.  Is the factory rebuild to new specifications on its last rebuild?

2. Since there is a year wait for a factory rebuilt engine .  Can you get a new engine any sooner?

3. Is the new engine any more reliable than the factory rebuilt eengine? 

[Fritz1]

Call Air Power on delivery time for new engine, the rebuilt uses a lot of new parts, to my best knowledge the crank is new, cylinders are new, exhaust is new, everything else is overhauled to new limits

I would not give up on overhauling the existing engine, there are shops that do a job as good or better than a factory rebuilt, getting new cylinders may be the time critical factor on the overhaul

I have heard good things about Gann in Georgia and Victor in CA, Lycon and a couple of others, call around, some of these shops do custom overhauls that run smoother than a factory engine

overall you are looking at a $100k situation for an overhaul / rebuilt, new probably over $150k

you will probably overhaul the propeller and the oil cooler at the same time, inspect the engine mount for cracks and have it repainted

part of the journey, thereafter you know exactly what you have up front

[slowflyin]

I've got a Victor Black engine in my Bravo and I love it!  Silky smooth-runs like a sewing machine.  No GAMIs but will run LOP if I choose.   All that being said, a Lycoming overhaul comes with exhaust and turbo.  Not so much with anyone else.  I thought my exhaust was in good shape.  Not so much.    

[A64Pilot]

Number 1. is incorrect, since every single item can be replaced there is no number of times an engine can be overhauled, the only limit is when parts are no longer available, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of 100+ yr old radials running around that there is no telling how many overhauls they have had, and many may not even have a single original part in them.

Secondly a quality overhaul is actually better than a brand new Lycoming, because the limits can be much more closely maintained, cylinders can be flow balanced, 7 angle valve jobs done, valve guides honed not reamed, everything balanced to less than one gram etc etc.

Call this guy and ask about his “performance” overhaul.  https://www.gannaviation.com/engine-overhauls

These aren’t of course automotive engines but many builders of race engines will only use “seasoned” blocks and not new because the belief is that blocks with thousands of heat cycles are stronger than new

[donkaye]

I'm on my 3rd engine.  The 2nd and 3rd are factors remans.  I wanted zero time engines.  Only Lycoming can do that.                          

[MB65E]

I’ve had flawless experiences with Lycon. I think I’ve sent Ken maybe 7 engines. The back log is worth the wait. A zero time engine means little to me. However, if that means I can have it now or in 8mo that would be a tough question. 

-Matt

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, donkaye said:

I'm on my 3rd engine.  The 2nd and 3rd are factors remans.  I wanted zero time engines.  Only Lycoming can do that.                          

Actually only a manufacturer OR their designated representative can zero time, but as far as I know no manufacturer has designated a representative to do so but they could, that goes for airframes too etc, for example Mooney can zero time an aircraft if they wanted to. As a manufacturer I would take an aircraft and put it in Experimental category, conduct developmental test flights, then zero time it before we sold it. I’m sure every manufacturer does.

Having said that zero timing means nothing. It’s not any kind of higher level of maintenance or higher standards or anything, it’s merely literally what it says it is, issuing a new logbook with 0 time as the initial entry. For our piston engines that don’t have life limited parts, it’s meaningless.

However as you show, marketing wise it’s worth money because most people don’t know the ins and outs of engine overhauls.

Lycoming could at their discretion do something different for zero time engines, but they aren’t required to.

[donkaye]

No matter the above or who the non manufacturer overhauler,  I'd never overhaul an engine.  

Call me stubborn but It's manufacturer reman only for me no matter the rationalization to the contrary.  It would definitely influence purchase price for me.

[mike_elliott]

14 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Call this guy and ask about his “performance” overhaul.  https://www.gannaviation.com/engine-overhauls

Carlos builds a good engine. very attentive to the small tolerances and details. Dont think anyone does a 7 angle valve job tho...thats a bit overkill for something that isnt twisting 15000 RPM

 

[PT20J]

An engine overhaul is only as good as the person doing the work. There has been a lot of turnover in most every industry during recent years. If I were going to have an engine overhauled, I would ask hard questions about who is going to do the work, and what their experience is, and how their work is inspected, and how the engine will be run in. And, I would visit the facility to see all this first hand. It's a lot of money.

When I attended the Lycoming factory class last year we got a tour of the factory. Lycoming currently assembles all engines on the same AS9100-certified assembly line. That means that new, overhauled and rebuilt engines are all assembled by the same persons using the same procedures, and there is an inspection at every step. The engines are run in in a computerized test cell with a dynamometer rather than a test club and you get a printout of the results with your engine. This means that it is mostly broken in when you take delivery. Since all engines are assembled on the same line with the same process, the only difference between new and rebuilt is the parts. New is new. Rebuilt engine parts come from a stock of used parts that meet new tolerances harvested from returned cores. Cylinders are scrapped. Camshafts are scrapped. The main parts that get reused are crankshafts and cases because these usually have little wear. They always use new cylinders and pistons.

I went with a factory rebuilt for three reasons: 1) At the time I did it (October 2018), it was the fastest option. 2) I wanted roller lifters and Lycoming now ships all non-turbo engines with roller lifters. 3) I felt that the AS9100 certification would reduce the risk of issues due to assembly variations. 

BTW, a rebuilt engine is zero time because Lycoming disassembles cores and puts all the reusable parts in stock and destroys the unusable parts. When a rebuilt engine is assembled, they pull all the parts from this stock plus whatever new parts are needed and there is no way to reconstruct any meaningful total time on the rebuilt engine. Since it meets new specs, it gets a new serial number (which indicates that it was rebuilt) and a new logbook. This means that your zero time rebuilt engine could theoretically have a crankshaft that has several thousand hours on it. This bothers some people. But I've never seen any evidence that rebuilt engines have a higher failure rate than new engines.

Skip

[A64Pilot]

9 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Carlos builds a good engine. very attentive to the small tolerances and details. Dont think anyone does a 7 angle valve job tho...thats a bit overkill for something that isnt twisting 15000 RPM

 

I called, he said he does. That’s also when I learned they hone, not ream valve guides. I’ve never seen guides honed myself, but know that’s how you get ridiculous tolerances. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t do the heads, I believe he has a specialist that does. I suspect that person may have come from NASCAR, but that’s just my suspicion. The person that taught me heads all those years ago did heads for a couple of NASCAR builders, he came down and helped us in the off season for a couple of months per year. Porting turns out isn’t intuitive and what worked on the track didn’t really show up on the flow bench for some reason. I have my theories as to why, but it’s just a theory.

Oh, when I did valves I blended the four inner cuts into a smooth bend on the head and valve as opposed to four angles, the valve seated on the outermost one of course

I used to do 5 angle on racing bikes 40 years ago, but comparatively they are tiny valves, so maybe 7 makes sense on big ones?

[A64Pilot]

7 hours ago, PT20J said:

When a rebuilt engine is assembled, they pull all the parts from this stock plus whatever new parts are needed and there is no way to reconstruct any meaningful total time on the rebuilt engine. 

There often isn’t really on a lot of overhauls, the hours are attached to the data plate, nothing else. Over time everything even the case can be replaced but the hours on the assembly just keep getting bigger.

For instance many a Super Cub is built using nothing but an existing logbook and data plate, while everything in the airplane could be new, if the logbook had 10,000 hours on it and was a 1946 airplane, then the one with all new parts is a 1946 airplane with 10,000 hours.

“new” Super Cubs bring so much we have a guy in the neighborhood that comes down from Maine and “builds” one every Winter, He always already has a buyer lined up. Everything is new, except the logbook and data plate.

Lycoming zero’s times, because they can and it brings them more profit doing so, they aren’t stupid, only they can and doing so is worth money.

[GeeBee]

If I was going to sell the airplane in the near future, I would go factory only because most buyers don't know what they are looking at and feel safe with a factory engine. . If I was going to fly it for a number of years, I would go with Carlus Gann. A Gann engine is infinitely superior to anything the factory can produce.

[skykrawler]

If Gann is honing valve guides and 5 angle valve jobs they must be overhauled cylinders.   Pretty sure doing that to a new Lycoming cylinder voids the warranty.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, skykrawler said:

If Gann is honing valve guides and 5 angle valve jobs they must be overhauled cylinders.   Pretty sure doing that to a new Lycoming cylinder voids the warranty.

They are overhauled in the angle valves, because I believe primarily new just don’t exist. Parallel valve motors I believe get new because there is a supply, but I’m sure his “performance” motors cylinders get re-worked.

‘Only the “performance” motors get this level of attention to detail, his regular overhauls do not, so of course the performance motors cost more. How much? I don’t know I don’t believe he lists their price, I believe you call him and decide how much you want and what it will cost, but I have not had him build a motor, I bought an airplane with one of his performance engines installed and had I think 500 hours on it.

However I’m sure they are warrantied, and I’d bet lunch that just like the engine core, superior to a factory part.

It’s not that he has superior materials and or some kind of special coatings or other snake oil, it’s simply that they are what old hot-rodders called blue printed motors, that is every part is identical to every other part and dead center of tolerances and fits are as tight as possible and bearing finishes are polished etc.

Doing so you spend a whole lot more time, and time is money for truthfully not a whole lot of difference, but there is a difference. Just Carlos not Lycoming warrants it.

A factory can’t truthfully blue-print a motor, first of all it would cost significantly more and secondly and more importantly they can’t get enough skilled labor to do the work. The skills are evaporating, they just don’t exist anymore, the ones with that kind of skill demand a higher price and don’t work in factories, they work in niche shops catering to speciality racing engines etc.

For example when NASA first began exploring the Space Launch System, very logically they looked at the RocketDyne F-1 engine that powered the Apollo. Nothing was more powerful and believe it or not but for its thrust it was actually much less expensive than say the Shuttle engines, it is the best engine to build a monster rocket with still to this day.

But they found out that the US can’t manufacture an F-1 anymore, it’s not that the drawings and plans don’t exist of course they do, what it is is the lack of skilled labor, welders and machinist of that caliber simply don’t exist anymore.

What we ended up with was a rocket using and throwing away very expensive re-usable shuttle engines and adding another section to the shuttle’s solid booster to make up for the thrust loss in the liquid fueled engines, spending billions of dollars over budget and years over due, and of course you can only build a few because there is a limited supply of shuttle engines.

https://apollo11space.com/why-cant-we-remake-the-rocketdyne-f1-engine/

[A64Pilot]

12 hours ago, GeeBee said:

If I was going to sell the airplane in the near future, I would go factory only because most buyers don't know what they are looking at and feel safe with a factory engine. . If I was going to fly it for a number of years, I would go with Carlus Gann. A Gann engine is infinitely superior to anything the factory can produce.

Your right of course, but a few do know.

The low time performance Gann motor is THE reason I bought this Mooney, I overlooked the lack of glass, the original but still serviceable interior and the tired paint and went for a corrosion free 2000 hour TT airplane with a good strong low time motor.

So some are out there but if you’re buying to sell your better off with a factory zero time, seemingly regardless of hours and that’s strange to me. Although if your buying to sell you will not recoup the money spent on a motor, if your selling in the near future your better off doing what’s necessary to keep what you have airworthy

But you know I think too many discount motors now, I’ve seen a couple of relatively low experience owners with run out or over TBO engines spending their money on glass, and that’s relatively new. Used to be people knew and understood that any time past TBO was questionable, you were sort of guaranteed up to TBO but time past that was possible but best if your financially prepared to buy an overhaul because one’s coming, now people seem much less concerned with engine time.

I think as silly as this sounds but younger people have been conditioned by automobile engines that simply never wear out, 21st Century auto engines easily will go 250,000 miles or more if you change the oil, and that never used to be the case. Now days the engines and driveline outlast the car, car falls apart but the engine still doesn’t use oil and is running strong the day the car goes to the junkyard.

But a new aircraft engine isn’t any different than one made 50 years ago and I think people just don’t realize that engines really do wear out, because they have never had the experience of a worn out motor. Where in the 60’s and 70’s many kids first car was worn out, an oil burner with 100,000 miles or less on it and many learned how to fix motors keeping the junker running and some even rebuilt the motor or replaced it with one from a wreck in a junkyard.

[GeeBee]

3 hours ago, skykrawler said:

If Gann is honing valve guides and 5 angle valve jobs they must be overhauled cylinders.   Pretty sure doing that to a new Lycoming cylinder voids the warranty.

Nope, I had brand new Lycoming cylinders from Gann and he stands behind them himself.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Nope, I had brand new Lycoming cylinders from Gann and he stands behind them himself.

I think now they are overhauled, due to him not being able to buy new. If new aren’t available, what other option is there? I don’t know but have heard new isn’t available from sources that say major overhaulers have a great many on back order and have for quite some time now, my assumption is that something has changed at Lycoming and it’s taking time they didn’t expect to work out. Seems to be the angle valve cylinders only though?

I assume that if and when new becomes available, he will be re-working new ones like he used to.

Properly done an overhauled cylinder is as good as or better than new. The issue is of course just like a crank, there is just so many times the part can be bored or turned so with new you can overhaul, one already overhauled it’s likely it can’t be overhauled a second time.

When I overhauled my IO-540W1A5D I foolishly ordered new Millenium cylinders before even removing the engine, because the opinion was Millenium was superior to OEM. I say foolishly because the ones I took off were fine, new valves and guides and clean up and they would have been good for another 2000 hours. The 235 HP 540 is run at very low stress and therefore lasts for a very long time, Redline is 2400 RPM

I got lucky with the Milleniums as they were old stock, I missed the AD that required their replacement by just a few serial numbers, so with hindsight replacing the OEM was foolish and a waste of money.

[PT20J]

The problem with overhauled cylinders isn’t the steel barrels; it’s the aluminum heads. Every combustion event expands and contracts them slightly, especially if they were run at higher CHTs. Eventually, they work harden and crack. Some designs more than others. So heads do wear out. 
 

[Pinecone]

Just realize what the differences are.

Factory New is just that, all new parts, a new engine. (For Brave, right now $159,000)

Factory Rebuilt or Factory Reman is a zero time engine made of a mix of new and used parts, but the used parts meet the specs of new..  ($101,000)

Factory Overhaul is an overhaul, done by the factory, typically to new tolerances and specs. ($91,000)

Field Overhaul can be from better than factory (more time and care and better craftsmen) to an absolute horror show.   Technically, they could open up the engine, inspect it, and put it back together with the same parts and call it overhauled, if the parts and tolerances meet the manufacturers specs.  But the specs for Servicable are a lot looser than for New.

One advantage to a factory engine is, you can order the engine and fly the plane waiting for the engine, then swap it out in a short period of time versus  removael, shipping, the time it takes to do the work, and shipping back.

I have no doubt that a quality field overhaul and deliver an engine that is better than the basic factory engine.  And in many circles, a first run engine that has a quality overhaul is even better as the heat cycles settle things into their final form/shape.

Personally, I would either do a Factory Reman or a quality field overhaul.  With the primary determination of what the downtime would be.

 

[daytonabch04]

Within the past year or so I just went through this.  I went with a field overhaul from an engine shop that was recommended by 2 MSC's.  I did have to replace all 6 cylinders and my camshaft was sent out for overhaul as well.  I feel confident that my engine was well taken care of in the rebuilt and assembly process.  I was down probably six months or so, but felt the value was well worth it.  I'm within my first 100 hrs from O/H but no issues yet and running smoothly.  All-in costs including re-installation was under 100k for my Bravo (about 78-79k all-in). 

[A64Pilot]

All that’s required to be an overhaul is to disassemble, clean, inspect, reassemble and test.

You don’t have to replace any parts so long as everything meets serviceable limits.

Now as we are talking Lycoming they have a mandatory SB with quite a long list of parts that must be replaced anytime and engine is taken apart for any reason, but it’s an SB, and SB’s aren’t mandatory, in truth it’s almost never fully complied with, most myself included replace all internal parts but draw the line on replacing hoses that are in near perfect condition.

Just like many replace ALL accessories, starter, alternator, Mags, prop governor etc. I’ll have the Mags overhauled and replace ignition harnesses, but if the alternator and starter look good I’ll put them back on.

So yes a field overhaul can be a horror show and still be a legal overhaul, or they can be the pinnacle of perfection, and everything in between.

At least with the factory you get an engine that meets a min standard that’s actually pretty high, but the price is in my opinion excessive, but then as an IA I do my own overhauls when necessary, not that I’ve done very many really.

An aircraft engine is no more complex that a lawnmower engine, but done right it’s done operating room clean with a passion for perfection, not just “good enough” 

I personally don’t see the need in a test cell or stand or clubs. I think installed on the aircraft is fine, but you do run the slight risk of an engine failure if it wasn’t put together well.

[goodyFAB]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:50 AM, donkaye said:

No matter the above or who the non manufacturer overhauler,  I'd never overhaul an engine.  

Call me stubborn but It's manufacturer reman only for me no matter the rationalization to the contrary.  It would definitely influence purchase price for me.

i'm surprised you are firm on this. there are some extremely skilled engine builders who have dedicated their life to their craft with an extremely high success rate. theres a huge variation of quality of work, but the factory does not necessarily produce the best engine every-time. i mean no disrespect. 

[donkaye]

5 hours ago, goodyFAB said:

i'm surprised you are firm on this. there are some extremely skilled engine builders who have dedicated their life to their craft with an extremely high success rate. theres a huge variation of quality of work, but the factory does not necessarily produce the best engine every-time. i mean no disrespect. 

That may be true, but that can't be guaranteed, I don't want the airplane down all that time, and the engine isn't zero timed.  I'm on my 3rd Reman Lycoming Factory engine.  Bottom line, considering the cost of an engine and what I said above, I feel more comfortable with a factory engine.

[Pinecone]

I understand your point, but also that, if you can stand the downtime, there are shops that do a better job than the factory.  They hold tolerance closer, and set them to where they should be, not just within the range.

Just like in the car world.  There is stock and then there is "stock."   I had one engine done by a top Mopar shop.  I got the engine build sheet.  The rod bearing clearances were 0.010", 0.010", 0.011", 0.010"  NO factory engine has been built to such tolerances.

And many top auto engine shops prefer to start with a used engine, because the thermal cycles have caused things to expand and contact and settle into the lowest stress state.