Overhead speaker removal?

[bcg]

I've got a 63 C, I'd like to remove my overhead speaker. I've looked at the TCDS and don't see it listed so, I can legally pull it out, correct?

 

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[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, bcg said:

 

I've got a 63 C, I'd like to remove my overhead speaker. I've looked at the TCDS and don't see it listed so, I can legally pull it out, correct?

 

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Does it work? Can be nice to have under limited circumstances.

[bcg]

Does it work? Can be nice to have under limited circumstances.

As far as I know, it doesn't. I really can't think of a reason I would use it. There are times I have a hard time understanding radios with Lightspeed Zulus, I can't imagine an overhead speaker being better.

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[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, bcg said:

As far as I know, it doesn't. I really can't think of a reason I would use it. There are times I have a hard time understanding radios with Lightspeed Zulus, I can't imagine an overhead speaker being better.

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The overhead speaker is good for things like ELT testing during annual, or even just radio/audio panel maintenance.   Replacements aren't expensive.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N4NY1KE

[Shadrach]

18 hours ago, bcg said:

As far as I know, it doesn't. I really can't think of a reason I would use it. There are times I have a hard time understanding radios with Lightspeed Zulus, I can't imagine an overhead speaker being better.

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It’s never better in flight. Nevertheless, my dad flew with an overhead speaker and a mic until the late 70s/early 80s. Seems insane to me today but it was the norm.
I use it on the ground sometimes in the same way I would use a handheld.

[bcg]

Soooo..... can I legally remove it or not?



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[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, bcg said:

Soooo..... can I legally remove it or not?



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The opinion that matters in this area is your IA.   He's the one that'll sign off your annual.

[bcg]

The opinion that matters in this area is your IA.   He's the one that'll sign off your annual.

I talked to him about it earlier this week, we weren't 100% sure. I'm going to bring it up again now that I've looked at the TCDS and see it isn't there, I was just curious what others thought.

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[kortopates]

I talked to him about it earlier this week, we weren't 100% sure. I'm going to bring it up again now that I've looked at the TCDS and see it isn't there, I was just curious what others thought.

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You mapped the equipped list by reference number to CAR3 to look up everything? the only equipment directly listed in the TCDS are ones with part numbers for things like vacuum pumps, governors, carbs etc


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[N201MKTurbo]

You say it doesn’t work. If your IA is the same one who has been doing it for years, and he has been signing it off with a broken speaker for years, he obviously doesn’t care.

[bcg]

You say it doesn’t work. If your IA is the same one who has been doing it for years, and he has been signing it off with a broken speaker for years, he obviously doesn’t care.

He isn't, the guy that did the annual last year was a pre-buy turned into an annual and really didn't do a very good job. Missed some very obvious stuff that absolutely should not have been missed. Like a broken weld on a cowl support rod and completely missing flame cones in the muffler obvious.

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[M20F]

When for whatever reason you take your headsets out and forget to put them back (2x for me) it is nice to have a click mic (fits in map pocket) and the speaker. 
 
I assure you many will say I would never do that, one thing I have learned in 30yrs of flying is we all do everything at least once…..

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

When for whatever reason you take your headsets out and forget to put them back (2x for me) it is nice to have a click mic (fits in map pocket) and the speaker. 
 
I assure you many will say I would never do that, one thing I have learned in 30yrs of flying is we all do everything at least once…..

The more hours you have the more once’s you will have. Eventually you do them all, I think…. It seems like the more you fly, the more creative you get.

So far I haven’t done any twice… knocking on wood…

[OR75]

do you have a hand mic ? 

that should answer your question 

having said that, not sure why anyone would want to remove it. access is a pain. leave it alone or if you go through the pain of removing the panels to remove , replace it .

[RLCarter]

Just a question…but isn’t an external speaker and a hand mic a requirement for the IFR cert? The only reason I ask is I’ve had several people that were looking for a mic for that reason 

[M20F]

2 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Just a question…but isn’t an external speaker and a hand mic a requirement for the IFR cert? The only reason I ask is I’ve had several people that were looking for a mic for that reason 

Yes and until I would say the mid-90’s what most used. 

[bcg]

do you have a hand mic ? 
that should answer your question 
having said that, not sure why anyone would want to remove it. access is a pain. leave it alone or if you go through the pain of removing the panels to remove , replace it .

No mic.

I've already got almost all the panels out right now doing some avionics work and cleaning up old wire. It's heavy and useless, to me anyway, and the ounces add up. I've pulled out 28 pounds of avionics and another 8 pounds of wire and old antennas. None of the individual items was all that heavy but they, they add up.

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[bcg]

Just a question…but isn’t an external speaker and a hand mic a requirement for the IFR cert? The only reason I ask is I’ve had several people that were looking for a mic for that reason 

I could be wrong but, I'm pretty sure 91.411 and 91.413 deal only with the pitot/static system and the transponder. I don't think the FARs care how you use your radio, just that you have one.

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[LANCECASPER]

This has been discussed before, but I still can't see any value in removing something (or not just replacing it if it doesn't work),  that could be useful if your headset or wiring failed, when all you would save is an maybe a pound. The next owner will expect it.

Since the interior is already apart, in much less time than it takes to read through this post, you could take out the old one and put in a new one and be done.

If one pound of useful is that important, a simple colon cleanse will do the trick . . .lol   

 

[47U]

23 hours ago, bcg said:

I'd like to remove my overhead speaker.

I reviewed the Airplane Flight Manual for my ‘63C, revised 17 Apr 63.  I found no reference to the speaker anywhere, including the Equipment List (dated 11 Jul 63).  I don’t think the speaker is required equipment.  My serial number is 2552, so (based on tail numbers) my C was somewhere ahead of yours on the production line.  

However, I would vote to keep it for all those reasons listed above.  If it’s not working, there might be some troubleshooting of wiring involved to determine the reason why.  My speaker is original and works fine.  Knife connectors and all.

If you do decided to pull the speaker out, I imagine you would placard the audio panel speaker button as “INOP” and your A&P would make that part of the logbook entry removing it. 

[bcg]

I reviewed the Airplane Flight Manual for my ‘63C, revised 17 Apr 63.  I found no reference to the speaker anywhere, including the Equipment List (dated 11 Jul 63).  I don’t think the speaker is required equipment.  My serial number is 2552, so (based on tail numbers) my C was somewhere ahead of yours on the production line.  
However, I would vote to keep it for all those reasons listed above.  If it’s not working, there might be some troubleshooting of wiring involved to determine the reason why.  My speaker is original and works fine.  Knife connectors and all.
If you do decided to pull the speaker out, I imagine you would placard the audio panel speaker button as “INOP” and your A&P would make that part of the logbook entry removing it. 

I'm 2589.

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[EricJ]

21 hours ago, kortopates said:

You mapped the equipped list by reference number to CAR3 to look up everything? the only equipment directly listed in the TCDS are ones with part numbers for things like vacuum pumps, governors, carbs etc

 

1 minute ago, bcg said:

I'm 2589.

What Paul posted above, i.e., referencing the CAR 3 regs, is the real way to figure out what minimum equipment is required.   There may just be a requirement that you can hear the radio, which could be met with headsets, or it may actually be worded that you need a speaker, or there may not be a requirement at all.    It's a bit of a pain to wade through the regs, but it can be done.

Or you can just sort out an approach that's comfortable with your IA.   He's the relevant authority on signing off your annual.

[GeeBee]

A more likely and common scenario is a bad headset or worse, a bad headset jack. Then a speaker is priceless.

 

[ArtVandelay]

A more likely and common scenario is a bad headset or worse, a bad headset jack. Then a speaker is priceless.
 

There’s always the copilot jacks.

[wombat]

A speaker is a not-large expense, but it provides a not-large value.    Priceless?  Not hardly.  Useless?  Closer, but not quite.   The failure mode that it protects against is extremely rare (I'm making that assertion, feel free to prove me wrong with data) and we have procedures in place (Lost comms) that will work as well.

The equipment required for IFR flight can be found in 91.205(d) and a speaker and/or microphone is not listed other than as part of "Two-way radio communication... equipment suitable for the route to be flown".   And if you want to claim that requires a speaker and microphone... Well, just don't.     The aircraft's certification might require, but removing it is not a major alteration (as defined by part 43 appendix A, section (a)).

 

So I assert that there is no legal requirement to keep it and welcome anyone who is willing to show me a regulation that says otherwise.  As @bcg says, the ounces add up.  On my 182 my mechanic and I pulled out 29 pounds worth of old wire and avionics.  The heaviest single item was about 6 pounds.   The plane is way better because of it.

 

Interesting idea about the speaker button being marked 'INOP' if you remove it.  I've seen a ton of planes flying around with Garmin GMA 340's that don't have DMEs, ADF's, or a COM3.   Why would we need to mark the speaker as INOP but those others would not need to be marked INOP?  The same for KMA-24 audio panels.

 

Reminds me of the people who say you *MUST* placard your plane saying that the nav lights need to be on at all times because of the wingtip or tailbeacon ADS-B.    Where is the placard requirement for the transponder, which must be on during all the same operations?