Mooney pre-buy questions

[papapatoto]

I was wondering of what you guys think of this, is it in airworthy condition? Are those compressions okay? What is a crossover scat tube? Is there anything I should be alarmed about? For reference this is a Mooney m20k 252 tse with a TSIO360MB2B-L-SB

PreBuy Letter to customer.pdf

[redbaron1982]

If you are new to airplane ownership I would highly recommend getting an expert advisor, such as Savvy Aviation, for both your prebuy and initial years. I wish I would have done that 2 years ago when I decided to buy an airplane.

I don't know continentals, but Lycoming has a SI that indicates that any compression check difference between cylinders higher than 15psi should be checked. In your case you have 20psi between cyl #1 and cyl #5.

Seeing the word corrosion in the items, I would ask them if they have opened all inspection panels and checked for corrosion in more structural things. This is based on previous experience, where prebuy did not include looking inside inspection panels and I had a 30k surprise one week after I closed the purchase.

Now, what's next is 100% personal, I don't have a good feeling about a prebuy inspection that indicates, as one of the items, "oil is getting dark, about time for an oil change". Oil changes are a regular thing, doesn't make sense to point it out in a prebuy. Is like if they would put "Fuel tanks getting low, about time to do a fuel top off".

Edited June 1, 2023 by redbaron1982

[DonMuncy]

I hesitate to criticize a prebuy inspection. They may have done an excellent job. But I am more concerned about the condition of things not mentioned. As Red Baron says, the most serious thing to check is for structural corrosion. But a gear swing, fuel tank sealant, and other Mooney specific items should be of interest to you. I am not very concerned about the compression numbers. For a Continental, those look pretty good.  

[0TreeLemur]

With so many squawks and few major finds, it is clear to me that this airplane has not been loved.   Even if it is a heck of a deal, I don't see that important Mooney specific items like spar corrosion, landing gear pucks, gear swing, play in the gear mechanism, or fuel staining mentioned at all.  Nothing about compliance with ADs and SIs?   Looks like a money pit to me.

I've bought two Mooneys.   This does not look like a Mooney pre-buy inspection.  The important stuff is not mentioned.

[EricJ]

It doesn't say what year or model airplane that I noticed, but most airplanes with very much age at all is going to have a similar squawk list.    The red items aren't that bad and would be the sorts of things you might expect to have to deal with on a used airplane.   If the ELT battery needs replacing because it is expired, a good question would be how much expired.   If was expired at the last annual that may be a bit of a caution, and if the airplane hasn't had an annual in a long time, that is also a concern.

+1 that for a Continental the compressions aren't a big concern.

As others have mentioned, it has the appearance of potentially having been a cursory pre-buy that may not have looked at some things that are potentially important in a Mooney pre-buy.   If they did look at them and they're all good, it could be a nice airplane.

Bottom line is that this pre-buy report by itself doesn't tell you much.

[A64Pilot]

Yeah that’s a good pre-flight, not a pre-buy.

I tell everyone so I’ll tell you, A pre-buy is a non defined term, it can mean anything at all and can be performed by anyone at all with no performance criteria.

My advice is start a pre-buy and only after everything important seems to check out turn it into an Annual.

If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard the pre-buy didn’t find it, but the first Annual found severe corrosion that likely totals the airplane, replacement wings needed etc. I could buy an Autopilot.

If a pre-buy was conducted correctly then nothing of consequence should be found in an Annual, but somehow there are several threads where something was.

Compressions etc are insignificant compared to serious corrosion.

 

[jetdriven]

They didn't say they checked the steel tube cage or spars for corrosion.  They didn't really say what they did 

[MikeOH]

I'll just ask my favorite pre-buy question: "How much and how often has the plane flown in the last year or two?"

Have you looked over the logs in detail?  How detailed are the annuals (detailed, or just a 'one liner')?  How many repair entries are made between annuals? (Shows ongoing maintenance; a good thing!)

[skykrawler]

The main difference between a pre-buy and an annual is inspectors (IA) tend to abhor assuming the liability of signing off as airworthy an airplane with problems and unsatisfied ADs. 

As Doc says......carpet, generally, is not an airworthiness issue.  Tubular and spar corrosion certain can be.

The importance of log books is is often overlooked when it comes to aircraft modifications and STCs and the weight & balance record.  Properly researching that the ADs are complied with can can require many hours if 'untraceable.'

[N201MKTurbo]

53 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

The main difference between a pre-buy and an annual is inspectors (IA) tend to abhor assuming the liability of signing off as airworthy an airplane with problems and unsatisfied ADs. 

As Doc says......carpet, generally, is not an airworthiness issue.  Tubular and spar corrosion certain can be.

The importance of log books is is often overlooked when it comes to aircraft modifications and STCs and the weight & balance record.  Properly researching that the ADs are complied with can can require many hours if 'untraceable.'

An IA has no obligation to sign off an airplane as airworthy if it has discrepancies, or to return it to service. He can  sign of the aircraft as unairworthy with a list of discrepancies. If your airplane is still in annual from the last annual you can legally fly it away. The owner is responsible for airworthiness, not the IA. If there are discrepancies, it is the owners responsibility to get them resolved. The inspector only needs to inspect, to do an annual.

I realize this isn’t the reality of the situation, because in most cases the inspector is also the mechanic doing the repair work identified by the inspector.

[0TreeLemur]

13 hours ago, EricJ said:

but most airplanes with very much age at all is going to have a similar squawk list.

The existence of so many squawks tells me that the owner has not cared to maintain the airplane more than the bare minimum, if that.  This makes me suspicious of hidden problems.

An inspection of almost any airplane that has received a paint job since 1990 and mostly kept inside will not include "Paint peeling throughout the airframe."

This tells me that it's (1) been owned by one or more CB's for decades, and (2) most likely spent a lot of time sitting on a ramp getting dosed with rain, sun, bird poop, maybe salt??  What bad could come from that???  So I want to see a pre-buy that says Mooney corrosion inspection done, and no corrosion found on main spar, stub spar, or Tubular steel frame.   What about SB-208b?   When was the last time that was complied with?

This is not a Mooney Prebuy.   I agree with @A64Pilot, at best it's a thorough preflight inspection.  Yeah, they clearly took off the cowl.  Wow.   Doesn't say that they removed any inspection panels or the belly.   You gotta do that to do a prebuy on a Mooney.

To buy this airplane on this prebuy is to take a series of major unnecessary risks, IMO.

 

[Pinecone]

I agree that there should be a list of things they checked that they found no issues.

Depending on the hours per year, it may be a good idea to pull and inspect the lifters.  I am glad I had it done (thanks for the advice @jetdriven ), as they were pitted.  Seller supplied all new ones.

[PT20J]

13 hours ago, jetdriven said:

They didn't say they checked the steel tube cage or spars for corrosion.  They didn't really say what they did 

EXACTLY. 

[Fly Boomer]

24 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I agree that there should be a list of things they checked that they found no issues.

Depending on the hours per year, it may be a good idea to pull and inspect the lifters.  I am glad I had it done (thanks for the advice @jetdriven ), as they were pitted.  Seller supplied all new ones.

Do you recall any of the costs associated with pulling lifters?

[PT20J]

A good inspection report should list everything they checked and the results. This is just a discrepancy list. Since most of the items are minor, it causes one to wonder how in-depth the inspection was,

Skip 

[Pinecone]

22 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Do you recall any of the costs associated with pulling lifters?

I have to see if the invoice was broken out.

Nope.  Total labor was 80 hours. 

[toto]

37 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I have to see if the invoice was broken out.

Nope.  Total labor was 80 hours. 

80 hours labor seems really high for a pre-buy. 

[Pinecone]

I thought so also.

But there were only a couple of things found on the first annual, so I will live with it.

[toto]

Is OP still here? @papapatoto

If all of the above is terrifying, I’ll temper it by saying that used airplane ownership is always an adventure, and for the most part it’s a labor of love for all of us.

There have been pre-buy inspections by reputable shops that missed important things, and inspections done by unfamiliar shops that caught deal-killers.

Like buying a used <anything>, there’s a leap of faith involved, and you try to hedge your bet by having someone put another pair of eyes on the bird. But it’s an inexact science, and there’s no perfectly correct answer.

If this is the plane for you, get a good report that’s focused on airworthiness items (ignore the cosmetic stuff) and then negotiate a price that both sides can live with. Then start the adventure

 

[redbaron1982]

31 minutes ago, toto said:

Is OP still here? @papapatoto

If all of the above is terrifying, I’ll temper it by saying that used airplane ownership is always an adventure, and for the most part it’s a labor of love for all of us.

There have been pre-buy inspections by reputable shops that missed important things, and inspections done by unfamiliar shops that caught deal-killers.

Like buying a used <anything>, there’s a leap of faith involved, and you try to hedge your bet by having someone put another pair of eyes on the bird. But it’s an inexact science, and there’s no perfectly correct answer.

If this is the plane for you, get a good report that’s focused on airworthiness items (ignore the cosmetic stuff) and then negotiate a price that both sides can live with. Then start the adventure

 

I would add on top of this that the price you pay for the airplane is not the true driving factor for cost ownership. In a 150k airplane you can be easily paying north of 50k to get the engine rebuilt, or 70k to get the latest avionics or if you find structural corrosion you would pay at best 40k, and at worst you would scrap the airplane. 

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I would add on top of this that the price you pay for the airplane is not the true driving factor for cost ownership. In a 150k airplane you can be easily paying north of 50k to get the engine rebuilt, or 70k to get the latest avionics or if you find structural corrosion you would pay at best 40k, and at worst you would scrap the airplane. 

Been there, did that. Even a good prepurchase inspection can't find everything. Look at how many airplanes have a problem crop up during annual that was missed during years of previous annuals. But, to get some value of the inspection, there should be a description of what was inspected as well as what was found, good or bad. 

[hubcap]

On 6/1/2023 at 2:24 PM, papapatoto said:

I was wondering of what you guys think of this, is it in airworthy condition? Are those compressions okay? What is a crossover scat tube? Is there anything I should be alarmed about? For reference this is a Mooney m20k 252 tse with a TSIO360MB2B-L-SB

PreBuy Letter to customer.pdf 97.63 kB · 82 downloads

Like the rest of these guys, I do not consider that any where near “adequate” for a pre-buy inspection….not that you needed a +1

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I would add on top of this that the price you pay for the airplane is not the true driving factor for cost ownership. In a 150k airplane you can be easily paying north of 50k to get the engine rebuilt, or 70k to get the latest avionics or if you find structural corrosion you would pay at best 40k, and at worst you would scrap the airplane. 

Which is why as much as is possible you should buy the airplane you want.

Don’t buy one thinking I can have this added, new engine and prop etc as it will almost always cost significantly more than the airplane equipped already with a low time engine etc.

The converse of that is if you put 50K into Avionics, you won’t get 50K more for it when you sell, or 50K into a new engine etc. 

[Pinecone]

That is the point, we only saw the bad list.

If there is a good things list, that would make a huge difference.

[toto]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

I don’t know why everyone is “ass uming” that the airplane in question had an inadequate inspection.  The OP posted the snag list only.  I’ve done lots of PPI’s and present the buyer with a report detailing the good points, the bad points requiring further negotiation and a list of time life items. 

I think we scared the OP off. It’s just a bunch of MSers talking about theoretical pre-buys at this point