Jump to content

My IA is retiring


jaylw314

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, Will.iam said:

The problem now a days is the litigious nature of society. .....

 

16 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

......And I agree about the litigious nature of our current society.

Litigious "now a days"? ... in "our current society". 

Next you will be saying that there was no litigation in General Aviation in the 70's and 80's.  This makes it sound like something has changed in aviation. 

The litigious nature of General Aviation was far worse in the 70's and 80's.  The sponsors of the GARA, the General Aviation Recovery Act claimed that litigation added $100,000 to the cost of every new GA plane in 1988 - that is equivalent to $260,000 today.

That was the "litigious nature" of your "parent's (or perhaps your grandparent's depending on your age) society" that brought General Aviation to its knees.

The IA's that are retiring today started their careers in the 70's and 80's - during the height of the litigious nature of the then "current society".

It is easy and lame to blame everything on lawyers.

Edited by 1980Mooney
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Remember, in 20 years, some of those plastic airplanes will be 40 years old and if still flying, will be a lot cheaper.

And there are some very old airplanes still flying

There are actually quite a bit of older plastic airplanes out there, I guess it’s how you define “old”

I have 20 years of Military maintenance experience, Military very early on adopted “plastic” so I’ve lived with and done composite repairs for a long time

I can tell you from experience, that first it doesn’t age as well as aluminum and that a repair like taxing into a light pole on a metal airplane is often trivial compared to the same repair on a composite airplane.

Then we have the issues of Non Destructive Inspection, NDI of metal is easier by far than composites, you can only do so much with coin tap and ultrasonic. Most metal damage is easily seen even by an untrained eye, composite hides it very well many times.

It’s my opinion that a composite airframe really does have a life limit, both in hours “fatigue” but also calendar, although calendar is likely variable and really tough to determine, but sort of the opposite of metal airplanes, metal ones are best stored in the desert, composite not likely. 

I believe these “plastic” airplanes will reach an age where they start breaking, metal airplanes can have an infinite life, if maintained that is.

How would you go about “reskinning” a Cirrus?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

There are actually quite a bit of older plastic airplanes out there, I guess it’s how you define “old”

I have 20 years of Military maintenance experience, Military very early on adopted “plastic” so I’ve lived with and done composite repairs for a long time

I can tell you from experience, that first it doesn’t age as well as aluminum and that a repair like taxing into a light pole on a metal airplane is often trivial compared to the same repair on a composite airplane.

Then we have the issues of Non Destructive Inspection, NDI of metal is easier by far than composites, you can only do so much with coin tap and ultrasonic. Most metal damage is easily seen even by an untrained eye, composite hides it very well many times.

It’s my opinion that a composite airframe really does have a life limit, both in hours “fatigue” but also calendar, although calendar is likely variable and really tough to determine, but sort of the opposite of metal airplanes, metal ones are best stored in the desert, composite not likely. 

I believe these “plastic” airplanes will reach an age where they start breaking, metal airplanes can have an infinite life, if maintained that is.

How would you go about “reskinning” a Cirrus?

So do you think the plastic planes will just become uneconomical to maintain, or start falling out of the sky?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Pinecone said:

But why work on airplanes, when you can make more working on cars?

One of the guys in my A&P class was a professional auto mechanic, and had worked up to a senior position at a Mercedes dealer.    He was very unhappy with that and is now at an airline and evidently much happier. 

I know a lot of people in the automotive maintenance world, and it's not all that.  They can't keep people because the mechanics make more money doing something else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the recent posting I saw was $40/hr for mechanics.   If I was going to be mechanical I would go welder shorter training and go make six figures in West Texas for a couple of years.

I think the work on your plane should be graduated.    I won't touch the wings fall off part or major take the engine apart.   But fine with engine accessories or putting in a glass panel.  Some days I miss things like I did have to have him find the fouled plug and clean It.

The annual is kind of dumb.   I have my IA talked into Upgrade a system per year and basic Inspections on other things.   In 10 years I should have a new plane.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I think the recent posting I saw was $40/hr for mechanics.   If I was going to be mechanical I would go welder shorter training and go make six figures in West Texas for a couple of years.

A friend just went through welding school a few years ago, a two-year program, and is now doing pretty well with a good career path in front of him.   It's a career where talent and quality matter, so I think that helps keep the jobs stable and paying relatively well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So do you think the plastic planes will just become uneconomical to maintain, or start falling out of the sky?

I don’t know actually, hopefully not many will fall out of the sky before mandatory inspections are required, and unless someone can come up with a mitigating action, the aircraft will be grounded. But I do think that some will fall out of the sky first, that’s usually been the impetus historically. 

My personal experience with this is Ag plane spar caps, both Air Tractor and Thrush have had them fail, and kill pilots. First came inspections to find the cracks, some more people got killed because inspections aren’t 100% and other factors, replacement intervals were put into place, Thrush chose to redesign the spar and move the life limit out beyond the realistic life of the aircraft, the other guy didn’t, and I haven’t looked into it i five years so I don’t know what’s going on now.

So my opinion is that let’s use Bonanza’s issues as an example, that yes there will be failures and AD’s, but can a realistic fix be designed? I don’t believe one can, but it depends on what fails.

But hey maybe I’m wrong, there are still fiberglass boats around that were laid up 60 years ago, but they also were hugely overbuilt as fiberglass was cheap, modern hulls don’t have 1/4 the glass, and I don’t know if you can compare fiberglass with modern composites, I don’t think so, but then maybe the industry learned from the Militaries problems and a new Cirrus just isn’t the same as a helicopter built in the 80’s and 90’s?

I just don’t have the same trust of it that I do with metal, often you can bend metal without failure, but often composites are very strong, but it doesn’t bend, if often fails suddenly.

On edit, if I had a composite aircraft, especially an older one, the top surfaces at least would be gloss white and it would never sit out in the Sun only be outside to fly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I think the recent posting I saw was $40/hr for mechanics.   If I was going to be mechanical I would go welder shorter training and go make six figures in West Texas for a couple of years.

I had mechanic training, but that was my idea exactly, become a contract Welder and make money in the oil patch, and I did pretty good too, got married Jan 1 1982.

Returned to find the oil field had collapsed, no jobs. I knew I was in trouble when I went to get something to eat at Mcdonald’s early one morning out job hunting, saw a couple of welding trucks in the parking lot, walked in and I was the only customer.

Went to talk to the Army recruiter, because there were NO jobs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I don’t know actually, hopefully not many will fall out of the sky before mandatory inspections are required, and unless someone can come up with a mitigating action, the aircraft will be grounded. But I do think that some will fall out of the sky first, that’s usually been the impetus historically. 

My personal experience with this is Ag plane spar caps, both Air Tractor and Thrush have had them fail, and kill pilots. First came inspections to find the cracks, some more people got killed because inspections aren’t 100% and other factors, replacement intervals were put into place, Thrush chose to redesign the spar and move the life limit out beyond the realistic life of the aircraft, the other guy didn’t, and I haven’t looked into it i five years so I don’t know what’s going on now.

So my opinion is that let’s use Bonanza’s issues as an example, that yes there will be failures and AD’s, but can a realistic fix be designed? I don’t believe one can, but it depends on what fails.

But hey maybe I’m wrong, there are still fiberglass boats around that were laid up 60 years ago, but they also were hugely overbuilt as fiberglass was cheap, modern hulls don’t have 1/4 the glass, and I don’t know if you can compare fiberglass with modern composites, I don’t think so, but then maybe the industry learned from the Militaries problems and a new Cirrus just isn’t the same as a helicopter built in the 80’s and 90’s?

I just don’t have the same trust of it that I do with metal, often you can bend metal without failure, but often composites are very strong, but it doesn’t bend, if often fails suddenly.

On edit, if I had a composite aircraft, especially an older one, the top surfaces at least would be gloss white and it would never sit out in the Sun only be outside to fly

A good friend of mine, Joe Henderson, died when the wing came off his AirTractor. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there is any competitive advantage in the labor market for aviation, it's the allure. Working on airplanes is way cooler than working on tractors or cars. We should be capitalizing on this from a young age. If you're not flying Young Eagles and being generally available as an advocate for aviation and the youth, you aren't doing your part. Not everyone is interested in becoming a pilot, but they might be mechanically inclined and find fascination in that. Our airport commission hosts a yearly Aviation Career day, it has become a massive event. Imagine if we ram-rodded one of those in every community.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

There are actually quite a bit of older plastic airplanes out there, I guess it’s how you define “old”

I have 20 years of Military maintenance experience, Military very early on adopted “plastic” so I’ve lived with and done composite repairs for a long time

I can tell you from experience, that first it doesn’t age as well as aluminum and that a repair like taxing into a light pole on a metal airplane is often trivial compared to the same repair on a composite airplane.

Then we have the issues of Non Destructive Inspection, NDI of metal is easier by far than composites, you can only do so much with coin tap and ultrasonic. Most metal damage is easily seen even by an untrained eye, composite hides it very well many times.

It’s my opinion that a composite airframe really does have a life limit, both in hours “fatigue” but also calendar, although calendar is likely variable and really tough to determine, but sort of the opposite of metal airplanes, metal ones are best stored in the desert, composite not likely. 

I believe these “plastic” airplanes will reach an age where they start breaking, metal airplanes can have an infinite life, if maintained that is.

How would you go about “reskinning” a Cirrus?

If you want to try it, here is one that might be cheap.  Hard landing with 4 aboard, no one injured, total loss.

http://www.avclaims.com/N25HW.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

A good friend of mine, Joe Henderson, died when the wing came off his AirTractor. 

I’m sorry to hear that. Thrush I believe as the fleet was older had the first failures.

First one was in Holland, owner was known to “stunt” the airplane so it was written off as a fluke, then we had one in Arkansas I think and that tripped the first AD, even had one that was because the pilot I believe had installed a wind vane drive AC compressor and had drilled into the main spar to attach it.

But the main spar cap was re-designed and is much thicker now and through analysis was assigned a 29,000 hour life limit, then later I flew an instrumented airplane and we raised it to 40,000 hours. Average new US Ag plane flies 500 hours a year and as they get older they naturally fly less, 500 hours a year the wing will last 80 years, and it’s very unlikely any Ag plane will accrue 40,000 hours.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The real solution is to have a “private a&p” certificate. A much shorter program. No jets, no piston overhauls (just you can time a msg) etc. To avoid the a&ps who scream about unfair competition it would be limited to working on your own aircraft. 
Personally I try to avoid taking my plane to an IA if I think something will not pass an inspection. So IAs could be like a smog station that just verify and write stuff up and send you home.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

The real solution is to have a “private a&p” certificate. A much shorter program. No jets, no piston overhauls (just you can time a msg) etc. To avoid the a&ps who scream about unfair competition it would be limited to working on your own aircraft. 
Personally I try to avoid taking my plane to an IA if I think something will not pass an inspection. So IAs could be like a smog station that just verify and write stuff up and send you home.  

You know all of this exists, just for Experimental's and I guess LSA’s.

I believe and someone in Canada can confirm or deny, but an “owner maintained” program exists, and I’ve heard it significantly reduces the value of the aircraft too, but I don’t know this, just have heard it.

https://copanational.org/flying-in-canada/aircraft-in-canada/owner-maintenance/

Would you do it if it reduced your aircraft’s value by 50%? I made that number up, don’t have a clue what it is

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

As you or someone else above commented, you can usually see bent metal, but the plastic can sustain damage that's hard to detect.

I’m guessing there isn’t much repair here, more R&R with new parts, starting with a set of wings I’d guess.

But think about it, you run off the runway on a fixed gear metal airplane and clean the gear out from under it and don’t touch the prop, what I don’t know $50,000 as a guess?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

You know all of this exists, just for Experimental's and I guess LSA’s.

I believe and someone in Canada can confirm or deny, but an “owner maintained” program exists, and I’ve heard it significantly reduces the value of the aircraft too, but I don’t know this, just have heard it.

https://copanational.org/flying-in-canada/aircraft-in-canada/owner-maintenance/

Would you do it if it reduced your aircraft’s value by 50%? I made that number up, don’t have a clue what it is

But are the owners licensed mechanics in this case? I’m proposing training and certification that hopefully would reduce that. Plus you still see a real IA every year.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, JimB said:

And it doesn't matter if they get their A&P through an A&P school or from practical experience, you can't teach mechanical aptitude. Well maybe you can "theoretically"....

Theory is critically important to understanding why things work the way they do.

Electrical theory teaches why systems work or don't work, so you know what part to replace.

Hydraulic theory teaches how landing gear systems work.

Aerodynamics theory teaches how planes fly, and react to changes in control systems or modifications to structures.

And no one understands corrosion prevention without learning about electrons, chemicals, etc.

There are three components to the A&P curriculum. Airframe, Powerplant, and General. 

General is where you learn the building blocks that lead to real understanding of Airframe and Powerplant subjects. In real schools, you start with General, and then progress into Airframe and Powerplant subjects.

You will NOT get any of the General topics or theory in a shop apprenticeship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Litigious "now a days"? ... in "our current society". 

Next you will be saying that there was no litigation in General Aviation in the 70's and 80's.  This makes it sound like something has changed in aviation. 

The litigious nature of General Aviation was far worse in the 70's and 80's.  The sponsors of the GARA, the General Aviation Recovery Act claimed that litigation added $100,000 to the cost of every new GA plane in 1988 - that is equivalent to $260,000 today.

That was the "litigious nature" of your "parent's (or perhaps your grandparent's depending on your age) society" that brought General Aviation to its knees.

The IA's that are retiring today started their careers in the 70's and 80's - during the height of the litigious nature of the then "current society".

It is easy and lame to blame everything on lawyers.

And yet those AI’s and A&P now do not put their signatures on the line. Back then they did in the height of the litigation era as you so put it.  When i asked why they all said they do not want the liability of it now. So something has changed maybe they were just young and naïve back then or maybe they started seeing other a&p’s or even themselves get sued. . 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having more allowable owner maintenance, even with a "private level" A&P is a good thing.

But not every aircraft owner is capable of doing much.  In some cases just NO mechanical training or aptitude.  Or just not physically capable of many of the tasks.

10 years ago, I would have been doing a lot more on my airplane than now.  Getting older sucks.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, philiplane said:

You will NOT get any of the General topics or theory in a shop apprenticeship.

Well...we can just agree to disagree. In the apprentice programs that I am involved in they get all the general topics, weight and balance, technical publications, inspection, mathematics, electrical, human factors, etc. 

As just a small side note to this, in an apprentice program we are able to weed out the people that you would wouldn't want working on your lawn mower let alone your single engine aircraft. If they don't perform, we let them go. At the A&P school, as long they can make a 70% and pay for their tuition they will get an their A&P no matter how terrible a mechanic they may be when done. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are tests for A&P, plus an Oral and Practical.

If you don’t have the knowledge, you won’t pass the tests, sure you can study for the writtens just like you can for the Pilot tests, but your not passing the checkride if you don’t have the Min knowledge and can fly the maneuvers.

The Oral and Practical is the mechanics checkride.

Sure there are some dummies that slip through, just as there are some pilots that do.

There has always been Apprentice programs for just about every mechanical job, machinist, electrician, welding etc. 

Having been a mechanic and welder etc my entire adult life, it’s my opinion that the school houses turn out people with decent book knowledge, but are very weak with actual skills because they haven’t developed them yet. Very often they are poor mechanics that often don’t really have the desire or aptitude

The Germans have it down or did if things haven’t changed, at some point, I think it may be eighth grade you track either College or Vocational, if Vocational you spend less and less time each year in the books and more and more at work, they partner with local businesses, so if being a machinist is your choice, you work at a local machine shop and do the book work at school.

On graduation it’s my understanding that the local business if they have the openings often offer jobs to the best of the class. It’s a win for the student and the business.

Our problem over here in my opinion is the system is geared to drive a student into debt often obtaining a four year degree that except for teaching it, there are no jobs, and there can only be just so many liberal arts instructors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.