TFR Violation Beaufort, SC 4/23/2023 Blue Angles Air Show

[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, rbp said:

The whole point of the "R" in an IFR clearance is to provide a route to the clearance limit in case of lost comms. if there's a TFR active en route that the pilots not supposed to go through, he should have been routed around it earlier

I tend to agree that being cleared as filed, means cleared as filed. However, TFRs are typically Restricted areas that are navigable with ATC permission. I would like to know when ATC begin calling him about the TFR. I don’t believe this pilot showcased great situational awareness or skill, but I think there were other factors that lead to the violation.
 I have a questioned ATC a few times about airspace that was in my path of flight. The answer is always some iteration of “you do your job, I’ll do mine”, at least that’s been my experience in and around the Washington Tri-Area Class B.

Early in my training my instructor told me that “flying is pretty easy as long as everything goes as expected. The unexpected is what tests your skills” I think this pilot took for granted that ATC was keeping him out of trouble. He was sorely mistaken.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

@GeeBee This is the question I've been asking a lot over the last few days here....How long of not having an interaction with them can I wait before asking them before it's a violation?

If someone is flying North over KCVO (Corvallis, WA) at 9,000' on an IFR flight and is on 125.8 and 5 minutes ago was the last time they had to respond to a radio call from Seattle Center, are they in violation?    FYI, they are not on the correct frequency for that altitude, but it's not charted on the IFR charts. They should be on Cascade Approach on 127.5.

There are several reasons why someone could not have switched over and without knowing what that reason was we don't know if there was a pilot deviation.    

"Last Assigned" is not necessarily the appropriate frequency.  I've had flights where I was unable to receive ATC in some locations due to their transmitter failing and had to switch to a different frequency (and wait a few miles) before I could talk to them again.

I'm not overthinking this, these incidents happen and we have to be able to deal with them.   Just because you have not experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

You don't know what the correct frequency is at any given time. That is why as long as you can receive transmissions on your last assigned frequency, that is all that matters. It does not matter if they are talking to you directly as long as you can receive them. Facilities often have to change a frequency for a given sector due to things like stuck mics, they have outages and turn their airspace over to other facilities, all sorts of things happen. What counts is you can receive on your last assigned frequency and if you can't, you need to either get on guard or get a relay. 

Look, I've crossed oceans where you don't talk to anyone except at the FIR boundary, but there is an absolute requirement to maintain listening watch (in fact listening watch on 4 frequencies) and that is what we are talking about here. Listening watch. If you think your "ears" are down, you need to take action immediately to verify a listening watch or to re-establish contact.

Might want to review Northwest 188 incident to know how long is too long. Too long is when you screw the pooch and this  guy in the OP screwed the pooch. You keep from screwing the pooch by continuous listening watch.

[N201MKTurbo]

About a year ago I was flying through central california IFR and was handed off to some AFB approach control. He gave me a shortcut that took me right through a TFR. I asked him if it was OK to enter the TFR area? He said "what TFR?" I said the airshow TFR at your airport. He said "That's next weekend" I said "Not according to ForeFlight". He said he would check the NOTAM. He comes back a few minutes later and says the NOTAM is correct. Then he said I was the third person that day that was asking about the TFR.

What is a pilot supposed to do?

[GeeBee]

13 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

About a year ago I was flying through central california IFR and was handed off to some AFB approach control. He gave me a shortcut that took me right through a TFR. I asked him if it was OK to enter the TFR area? He said "what TFR?" I said the airshow TFR at your airport. He said "That's next weekend" I said "Not according to ForeFlight". He said he would check the NOTAM. He comes back a few minutes later and says the NOTAM is correct. Then he said I was the third person that day that was asking about the TFR.

What is a pilot supposed to do?

His bad, not yours but you are the final authority.

[rbp]

29 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I tend to agree that being cleared as filed, means cleared as filed. However, TFRs are typically Restricted areas that are navigable with ATC permission. I

you don't have to be "cleared as filed" -- you can be issued a different clearance when you call clearance delivery, and you can be issued an amended clearance en route. but your clearance is your clearance, and that's what you're expected to fly (WX and terrain notwithstanding). if you miss a radio call / frequency change, its NOT an automatic violation of 91.13.

your clearance takes you through a TFR, you fly through it, you get a number to call, you ask them to check the tapes. 

someone wrote "you're the final authority", which is true. but being the final authority does't make you are the sole person responsible. 

[Shadrach]

41 minutes ago, rbp said:

you don't have to be "cleared as filed" -- you can be issued a different clearance when you call clearance delivery, and you can be issued an amended clearance en route. but your clearance is your clearance, and that's what you're expected to fly (WX and terrain notwithstanding). if you miss a radio call / frequency change, its NOT an automatic violation of 91.13.

your clearance takes you through a TFR, you fly through it, you get a number to call, you ask them to check the tapes. 

someone wrote "you're the final authority", which is true. but being the final authority does't make you are the sole person responsible. 

Yes I understand all that. My point was the same as yours in that he was cleared all the way to STARY. I was merely adding the fact that it is absolutely feasible that  a pilot is issued a clearance through an airshow TFR (depending on what operations were being conducted at the time). The “flying farmer” does not require the same “box” that the Angels do. So there was no reason for the FAA to issue an alternative routing at the outset of the flight.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

His bad, not yours but you are the final authority.

Not his bad, he didn't do anything wrong. Foreflight was jacked up.

[Pinecone]

9 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Perhaps.  But what is the simplest and likely explanation for not being aware of the TFR?  The Air Show/Blue Angel TFR's are usually posted about 10 days ahead of the show.  The KNBC Beaufort show was a 2 day event TFR.  The next upcoming Blue Angels/ Air show at Ft. Lauderdale is 4 days starting April 27.  (posted April 17) - see below.  It is plainly clear that aircraft need to avoid. 

I can think of a few explanations for not being aware, but they all involve either the pilot not briefing the plan/NOTAMs/TFR or actually briefing/being told by ATC but somehow carelessly forgetting.    His initial response to ATC sounded like he felt it was ATC's responsibility ..

ATC: "You guys violated an active TFR over Beaufort"

Pilot: "We are on an IFR Flight Plan"  (as if the Controller didn't know..)

Today's technology makes it easier than ever to file a simple point to point direct IFR plan online without bothering to brief anything. 

But that NOTAM does say:

Operating Restrictions and Requirements			Top
No pilots may operate an aircraft in the areas covered by this NOTAM (except as described).
UNLESS AUTH BY ATC.   The question being, is being on an IFR flight plan and vectored or given a clearance that goes through the TFR constitute authorization by ATC?   Similar to Class B,  if you are IFR and ATC gives you a vector that clips the Class B are you cleared to enter the Class B or do they have to sspecificatlly say that you are cleared into the Class B?

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

 

Similar to Class B,  if you are IFR and ATC gives you a vector that clips the Class B are you cleared to enter the Class B or do they have to sspecificatlly say that you are cleared into the Class B?

Last time that happened to me and I asked, Approach told me, "you're IFR, I just cleared you."

[Pinecone]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

Last time that happened to me and I asked, Approach told me, "you're IFR, I just cleared you."

Same with me.  But at another nearby Class B I heard the controllers specifically clear people to enter the Class B when they did a vector or clearance or amendment.

[wombat]

@GeeBee Why don't you tone down a notch here? 

I don't know what your experience is, but you don't seem to understand that there are plenty of situations that happen that don't match with your experience.   Things like planes without a dedicated radio for 121.5, or areas where the frequency ATC wants you on isn't published on the chart, or that ATC might not hand you off to the next facility before you fly out of the previous one's range.  

 

I've provided several examples where the pilot could be doing everything right and by the book but could still be not able to hear or be received by ATC for some time and not know it until they make a radio call and ATC doesn't respond.  And the immediate question then is how long is OK for a pilot to not have a confirmed communication with ATC to them before the pilot must take action or is in violation of some regulation.  The real answer that I expect would be supported by the FAA is that it depends on a lot of things, including the pilot.

 

You are extremely confident in your condemnation of the pilot of N91396, but you don't know what happened, and from my interactions with you, you can't, don't, or won't imagine that anything that you have not personally experienced might occur.

 

All that being said, I suspect that the pilot of N91396 was doing something wrong.  How do you fly for as long as they did in that crowded of airspace without talking directly to ATC and not think something is wrong enough to call them and ask? (9 minutes + however long it is ATC was trying to reach them before enlisting the help of other aircraft)  But I don't know what their last interaction with ATC was, or how long ago it had been, or what the pilot could hear on the radio.   And while I have my suspicions, what I know for sure is that this thread doesn't contain enough information for us to be sure.

Edited May 30, 2023 by wombat

[GeeBee]

14 minutes ago, wombat said:

I don't know what your experience is, but you don't seem to understand that there are plenty of situations that happen that don't match with your experience. 

53 years+, 29,000 hours in everything from J-3 to A330, 121 Check Airman, 141 Chief Instructor, 135 Chief Pilot, former DPE.

I've seen this one plenty of times. In a word....inattention.

 

[A64Pilot]

Is it just me? I’ve never monitored Guard, except rarely ATC used to ask me to check if I heard a beacon.

[wombat]

@GeeBee I could be snarky about how you can have all that experience and still miss my point.   So what I'll say instead is that I think all of us should withhold our criticism and judgmental statements until all the facts are known and there are ways this pilot could have been doing everything right.  Or at least close to right.

 

The theories I've got so far are:

• Intentional so they could fly through the TFR
• The pilot is flat out incompetent
  • Maybe too old.
  • Maybe not instrument rated or current.
• Pilot error of inattentiveness
  • Switched the radio to a different frequency that ATC didn't try to talk to them on?
  • Switched the radio off?
  • Missed multiple calls?
• ATC failure (Combined with a lesser pilot error of not confirming with ATC periodically)
• Equipment failure (Combined with a lesser pilot error again)

The plane seems to fly quite a lot, but the altitudes shown in FlightAware are rarely either on the 500' mark or 1,000' mark, so I don't know for sure if they are flying IFR or VFR.  If I had to guess though they are flying mostly VFR, because when Westbound their altitudes (from my spot checks) are even thousands plus 700' or 800', which is much closer to a VFR altitude than IFR.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N91396/history

[Steve0715]

34 flights in less than 3 months and once each month flies from Burlington VT to Spruce Creek Fl with one fuel stop.  Almost 8 hours.  Dudes my hero.  I suggest a nap during the 4 plus hour leg…

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Same with me.  But at another nearby Class B I heard the controllers specifically clear people to enter the Class B when they did a vector or clearance or amendment.

Only if they’re vfr - then it’s definitely required.  If you’re ifr, you don’t need to hear that, your “clearance is clearance”.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Is it just me? I’ve never monitored Guard, except rarely ATC used to ask me to check if I heard a beacon.

Technically you’re supposed to when possible. It’s in the AIM, forgive me but I don’t have the reference right in front of me.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Is it just me? I’ve never monitored Guard, except rarely ATC used to ask me to check if I heard a beacon.

Here’s the reference.  Apparently it’s in an fdc notam.  I don’t monitor it perfectly either, but I try to most of the time.

https://pic.aopa.org/discuss/viewtopic/169/2151
 

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

@GeeBee I could be snarky about how you can have all that experience and still miss my point.   So what I'll say instead is that I think all of us should withhold our criticism and judgmental statements until all the facts are known and there are ways this pilot could have been doing everything right.  Or at least close to right.

 

The theories I've got so far are:

• Intentional so they could fly through the TFR
• The pilot is flat out incompetent
  • Maybe too old.
  • Maybe not instrument rated or current.
• Pilot error of inattentiveness
  • Switched the radio to a different frequency that ATC didn't try to talk to them on?
  • Switched the radio off?
  • Missed multiple calls?
• ATC failure (Combined with a lesser pilot error of not confirming with ATC periodically)
• Equipment failure (Combined with a lesser pilot error again)

The plane seems to fly quite a lot, but the altitudes shown in FlightAware are rarely either on the 500' mark or 1,000' mark, so I don't know for sure if they are flying IFR or VFR.  If I had to guess though they are flying mostly VFR, because when Westbound their altitudes (from my spot checks) are even thousands plus 700' or 800', which is much closer to a VFR altitude than IFR.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N91396/history

Well you queried as to my experience, and I answered. 

Here is my view. If you know you are going through or near a TFR even on an IFR clearance, be dang sure you got your ears up. If you don't know you are going through a TFR, that is poor preflight action. The only other reason is physiological failure, in which case a medical review is in order. Again, not a lot of wiggle room. As lawyers say, "Res ipsa loquitur"

[Ragsf15e]

20 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Well you queried as to my experience, and I answered. 

Here is my view. If you know you are going through or near a TFR even on an IFR clearance, be dang sure you got your ears up. If you don't know you are going through a TFR, that is poor preflight action. The only other reason is physiological failure, in which case a medical review is in order. Again, not a lot of wiggle room. As lawyers say, "Res ipsa loquitur"

I agree with you on this, but even if i was sure i was on the right freq and my initial clearance (from takeoff) was through the tfr, I’d probably query the controller before going through a tfr.  However, there are different flavors of tfr, and some specifically say aircraft may be allowed through on ifr approach to certain airports (like a baseball/football game in Seattle and approach to 14r at KBFI).  If I’m on the approach there, I know I meet the requirements, I wouldn’t ask.

[201Steve]

Lots of good  banter going on here, but it’s simple. The guy is 84 (according to previous on this thread). Case closed. 
 

He just found out he’s lost the step. A sobering realization indeed. 

[toto]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Technically you’re supposed to when possible. It’s in the AIM, forgive me but I don’t have the reference right in front of me.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, 201Steve said:

Lots of good  banter going on here, but it’s simple. The guy is 84 (according to previous on this thread). Case closed. 
 

He just found out he’s lost the step. A sobering realization indeed. 

How insightful. 

[PT20J]

23 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

About a year ago I was flying through central california IFR and was handed off to some AFB approach control. He gave me a shortcut that took me right through a TFR. I asked him if it was OK to enter the TFR area? He said "what TFR?" I said the airshow TFR at your airport. He said "That's next weekend" I said "Not according to ForeFlight". He said he would check the NOTAM. He comes back a few minutes later and says the NOTAM is correct. Then he said I was the third person that day that was asking about the TFR.

What is a pilot supposed to do?

According to the FAA, NOTAMs are the official source. Both ADS-B and ForeFlight obtain graphical TFR data from tfr.faa.gov. That website contains the following disclaimer.

This site is informational in nature and is designed to assist pilots and aircrews for flight planning and familiarization. It may be used in conjunction with other pre-flight information sources needed to satisfy all the requirements of 14 CFR 91.103 and is not to be considered as a sole source of information to meet all pre-flight action. Due to system processing delays, recently entered notams may not be displayed 

Skip

[Shadrach]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:37 AM, PT20J said:

According to the FAA, NOTAMs are the official source. Both ADS-B and ForeFlight obtain graphical TFR data from tfr.faa.gov. That website contains the following disclaimer.

This site is informational in nature and is designed to assist pilots and aircrews for flight planning and familiarization. It may be used in conjunction with other pre-flight information sources needed to satisfy all the requirements of 14 CFR 91.103 and is not to be considered as a sole source of information to meet all pre-flight action. Due to system processing delays, recently entered notams may not be displayed 

Skip

A statement no doubt well considered and formulated to avoid liability.  
So then the only way to truly CYA is to call a briefer and ensure your voice and N number are captured on a recorded line receiving information as soon as practicable prior to departure. 
it’s like having spreadsheet software that does not necessarily generate accurate values. So it’s merely there as a tool to be used in conjunction with a paper and pencil.