Help! Avionics $***show - how to proceed

[goalstop]

I'll make this story short, since writing a whole essay might make my blood boil and is probably unnecessary.  For more details on all the other issues along the way, see this thread 

New issue now:

+ Purchased GTN650xi directly from the manager of avionics at this Garmin certified avionics shop (late 2021)

+ Manager of avionics said "I can get the unit directly for you from Garmin without going through the shop, so you can avoid the shop markup".  This was the major reason I decided to go with him (markup would have been ~20%)

+ A year later, and many many many issues with the rest of the install later (broken parts, cut wires, forgetting to order long lead time parts), I find out that the avionics manager has been stealing from his own shop by doing deals like this (over $100K of stolen items in total)

+ Shop owner checked his records, and turns out the avionics manager invoiced my GTN directly to the shop instead of paying for it himself

+ Now, shop owner's insurance wants me to give the unit back to the shop since I'm "in possession of stolen property"

So now, I haven't flown in almost a year, have a contested GPS unit, and feel like I have nobody to help me... not enough to justify getting a lawyer for this, but still a LOT of money to me... any suggestions on things to do would be greatly appreciated

Thank you!

 

[RoundTwo]

Wow! Sorry to hear you’ve been wrapped up in someone‘a scheme. I’m no attorney so I won’t offer anything other than a wish of good luck your way. 

[alextstone]

9 minutes ago, goalstop said:

I'll make this story short, since writing a whole essay might make my blood boil and is probably unnecessary.  For more details on all the other issues along the way, see this thread 

New issue now:

+ Purchased GTN650xi directly from the manager of avionics at this Garmin certified avionics shop (late 2021)

+ Manager of avionics said "I can get the unit directly for you from Garmin without going through the shop, so you can avoid the shop markup".  This was the major reason I decided to go with him (markup would have been ~20%)

+ A year later, and many many many issues with the rest of the install later (broken parts, cut wires, forgetting to order long lead time parts), I find out that the avionics manager has been stealing from his own shop by doing deals like this (over $100K of stolen items in total)

+ Shop owner checked his records, and turns out the avionics manager invoiced my GTN directly to the shop instead of paying for it himself

+ Now, shop owner's insurance wants me to give the unit back to the shop since I'm "in possession of stolen property"

So now, I haven't flown in almost a year, have a contested GPS unit, and feel like I have nobody to help me... not enough to afford a lawyer for this, but still a LOT of money to me... any suggestions on things to do would be greatly appreciated

Thank you!

 

So sad to hear this.  Unfortunately, your first hint was that he was self dealing behind his employer's back.  It sounds to me like you are in receipt of stolen property (I'm not an attorney, BTW).  Ask an attorney for next steps (probably press charges on the thief, surrender the unit and cut your losses) and good luck.

[LANCECASPER]

If it sounds too good to be true it probably is. You're just fortunate that you actually have the unit and the shop owner didn't seize it from you. although he is requesting it back. Did you pay by check? Cash? If you wrote the check directly to the manager, you are probably complicit. Did you get a receipt with the company name on it? No receipt would probably indicate a shady deal that would have been a red flag that someone was getting ripped off. If you have a receipt for what you paid, offering immediately to at least pay the dealer the 20% markup that he was entitled may indicate your good faith and may allow you to possible keep the unit and not have the unit on Garmin's stolen list.

You did deal with his "agent" who at the time was representing him. It sounds like this shop owner does not have his head in his business to allow this happen, so that's on him. You acted in good faith by going to his company to have services rendered, but it's a little fuzzy after that. The fact that the owner had a thief for an employee is mainly his problem, not yours. And the fact that he doesn't have checks and balance to verify that this type of thing doesn't happen tells me that he does not run a good business. In my opinion, the gray area is whether the insurance company is considering you an accomplice for receiving stolen goods. A paid receipt for what you paid would solve that. Let his insurance company deal with this. But yes you need an attorney. In my layman opinion this is at least a civil matter and may turn into a criminal matter. I would deal with this in a humble manner, willing to meet part way and realize that if you don't win over his trust this may get pretty nasty. The insurance company has close to unlimited legal resources.

EDIT: I added more after thinking about it

[Fly Boomer]

4 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

If it sounds too good to be true it probably is. You're just fortunate that you actually have the unit and the shop owner didn't seize it from you. although he is requesting it back.

You dealt with his "agent" who at the time was representing him. You acted in good faith by going to his company to have services rendered. The fact tat he had a thief for an employee is his problem, not yours. Let his insurance company deal with this. But yes you may need an attorney.

I would be concerned about getting service in the future.  From any Garmin dealer.

[KLudwick]

48 minutes ago, goalstop said:

I'll make this story short, since writing a whole essay might make my blood boil and is probably unnecessary.  For more details on all the other issues along the way, see this thread 

New issue now:

+ Purchased GTN650xi directly from the manager of avionics at this Garmin certified avionics shop (late 2021)

+ Manager of avionics said "I can get the unit directly for you from Garmin without going through the shop, so you can avoid the shop markup".  This was the major reason I decided to go with him (markup would have been ~20%)

+ A year later, and many many many issues with the rest of the install later (broken parts, cut wires, forgetting to order long lead time parts), I find out that the avionics manager has been stealing from his own shop by doing deals like this (over $100K of stolen items in total)

+ Shop owner checked his records, and turns out the avionics manager invoiced my GTN directly to the shop instead of paying for it himself

+ Now, shop owner's insurance wants me to give the unit back to the shop since I'm "in possession of stolen property"

So now, I haven't flown in almost a year, have a contested GPS unit, and feel like I have nobody to help me... not enough to afford a lawyer for this, but still a LOT of money to me... any suggestions on things to do would be greatly appreciated

Thank you!

 

Hi Goalstop - my name is Kyle, a fellow M20E owner and Garmin employee.  Can you possibly pass along the details directly to me please?  Kyle.Ludwick@Garmin.com.  We would like to help with this issue!

Apologies in advance for the trouble you've gone through.

Kyle 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I’m not an attorney but seems like you are going to have to return this radio and pursue a claim against the guy who stole the radio and sold it to you.  Unfortunately people like that don’t often have anything to go after.  I’d definitely consult an actual attorney for legal advice specific to your state and follow their advice.  

[goalstop]

22 minutes ago, KLudwick said:

Hi Goalstop - my name is Kyle, a fellow M20E owner and Garmin employee.  Can you possibly pass along the details directly to me please?  Kyle.Ludwick@Garmin.com.  We would like to help with this issue!

Apologies in advance for the trouble you've gone through.

Kyle 

Thanks so much Kyle for anything you can help with!

will reach out shortly over email

[GeeBee]

I will give you the bottom line first. Then the arguments.

Bottom line first: You have to decide if the cost of litigation is less than the cost of a new GTN650xi. The value of you present unit is zero because the Garmin dealer, the shop will be required by it's insurance carrier to report the unit as stolen to Garmin, you have no warranty, no service and may not be able to buy a data base renewal for it. Finally insurance companies have lawyers, lots of them as a cost of doing business, you will have one lawyer and paying him out of pocket. Each dollar paid is a dollar you could put towards a legitimate unit if you lose. Ask yourself this question. Imagine this was a car and the sales manager sold you a car he stole. Could you keep car? The fruit of a poisonous tree rots very fast. 

Your allegation: You selected a shop to purchase and install the unit in good faith. You were unwittingly lured into a larcenous scheme by the shop's agent, a larcenous manager. You were unaware of the shops dealership agreement with Garmin that prohibited direct purchases by the larcenous shop manager. Because of this fraud perpetrated upon you by the shop's agent, you should be entitled upon reimbursement of the 20% the shop lost in markup to have the unit listed with Garmin as legitimate and the insurance company should reimburse the shop for the remaining losses.; or 

The everyone rolls around in the mud strategy:You could also file suit against the shop because it's agent duped you into a larcenous arrangement because you believed as an agent of a Garmin dealer his actions were legitimate. The shop would have to file an additional claim with the insurance company and the suit would be joined with the insurance company suit against you. To do so you also need to file a police report of "theft by deception" against the shop manager and press home the charge. In the meantime, you got a very limited GTN650nxi and hope nothing goes wrong with it. 

Insurance company allegation: I say insurance company and not the shop because there is now a claim and they are the aggrieved party and the shop's policy requires them to agree to all subrogation and collection efforts including listing your unit as stolen with Garmin. The insurance company is going to say you should have known that nobody but an authorized dealer (the shop) can buy from Garmin wholesale. It will allege you are a co-conspirator no matter how unwitting you were. It will depose you and ask you questions like, "how did you expect warranty when a dealer was not the original purchaser" and "why did you think the shop manager would give up the shop's ordinary and customary mark up for you." It will get very uncomfortable because you will have to admit the deal was just a little bit out of the ordinary.

What I would do: I would tell the insurance company that even if you gave them back the unit and they could resell it, it is still a used unit. I would offer to pay a used price for it as long as their client properly registers the unit for warranty with Garmin and clears its title with Garmin. Even if you had to pay a little over the used value it is cheaper than giving it back (if you lose against them) and having to buy a new unit at retail. Then lick your wounds.

 

[1980Mooney]

This situation is really unfortunate.  I see from the link which the OP posted in first post that this was a Mooney Service Center - the one with the "extortionary mechanic", that all the pitot static fittings shattered after being worked on, that charged him more hours to fix their defective parts at $150/hour.  They have a dishonest service manager that steals from them and extorts customers. The OP has been screwed all around.  

It is really sad to hear that a MSC could become so careless, poorly managed and dishonest..  I would hope that other Mooney owners in the area are aware of which MSC this is.

 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I will give you the bottom line first. Then the arguments.

Bottom line first: You have to decide if the cost of litigation is less than the cost of a new GTN650xi. The value of you present unit is zero because the Garmin dealer, the shop will be required by it's insurance carrier to report the unit as stolen to Garmin, you have no warranty, no service and may not be able to buy a data base renewal for it. Finally insurance companies have lawyers, lots of them as a cost of doing business, you will have one lawyer and paying him out of pocket. Each dollar paid is a dollar you could put towards a legitimate unit if you lose. Ask yourself this question. Imagine this was a car and the sales manager sold you a car he stole. Could you keep car? The fruit of a poisonous tree rots very fast. 

Your allegation: You selected a shop to purchase and install the unit in good faith. You were unwittingly lured into a larcenous scheme by the shop's agent, a larcenous manager. You were unaware of the shops dealership agreement with Garmin that prohibited direct purchases by the larcenous shop manager. Because of this fraud perpetrated upon you by the shop's agent, you should be entitled upon reimbursement of the 20% the shop lost in markup to have the unit listed with Garmin as legitimate and the insurance company should reimburse the shop for the remaining losses.; or 

The everyone rolls around in the mud strategy:You could also file suit against the shop because it's agent duped you into a larcenous arrangement because you believed as an agent of a Garmin dealer his actions were legitimate. The shop would have to file an additional claim with the insurance company and the suit would be joined with the insurance company suit against you. To do so you also need to file a police report of "theft by deception" against the shop manager and press home the charge. In the meantime, you got a very limited GTN650nxi and hope nothing goes wrong with it. 

Insurance company allegation: I say insurance company and not the shop because there is now a claim and they are the aggrieved party and the shop's policy requires them to agree to all subrogation and collection efforts including listing your unit as stolen with Garmin. The insurance company is going to say you should have known that nobody but an authorized dealer (the shop) can buy from Garmin wholesale. It will allege you are a co-conspirator no matter how unwitting you were. It will depose you and ask you questions like, "how did you expect warranty when a dealer was not the original purchaser" and "why did you think the shop manager would give up the shop's ordinary and customary mark up for you." It will get very uncomfortable because you will have to admit the deal was just a little bit out of the ordinary.

What I would do: I would tell the insurance company that even if you gave them back the unit and they could resell it, it is still a used unit. I would offer to pay a used price for it as long as their client properly registers the unit for warranty with Garmin and clears its title with Garmin. Even if you had to pay a little over the used value it is cheaper than giving it back (if you lose against them) and having to buy a new unit at retail. Then lick your wounds.

 

I’m definitely no lawyer, but if he bought it from a legitimate agent of the shop, shouldn’t the shop be responsible for refunding his purchase price if he gives it back?  I get that the guy was stealing, but the shop hired him and he was stealing from them.  The insurance company should be after the crook here, no?

[hubcap]

How and who did you pay? Do you have a receipt?

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m definitely no lawyer, but if he bought it from a legitimate agent of the shop, shouldn’t the shop be responsible for refunding his purchase price if he gives it back?  I get that the guy was stealing, but the shop hired him and he was stealing from them.  The insurance company should be after the crook here, no?

But he gave the money to the shop manager, not the shop.

[EricJ]

Money spent on a good attorney at this point could likely save you a lot in the long run.   I wouldn't make another move until engaging a competent attorney cognizant in this area.   Don't surrender the unit to anybody, don't commit to any action to anybody, until you get some legal advice.   Even if you do what you think is right, it could be the exact wrong thing from a legal perspective.

It sounds to me like you're a victim here, but the other entities will have their interests in mind, not yours.   Make sure your interest is addressed properly from a legal perspective, and the only real way to do that properly is with the help of a competent attorney who knows the issues.

Just my two cents.

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

But he gave the money to the shop manager, not the shop.

Just playing devils advocate, I give my money to the nice lady at the checkout stand when i buy groceries.  She works for the store.  Who did I give it to?  
 

If he wrote a personal check to the guy, maybe that’s bad.  If he paid cash or cc, who knows?  I think he needs an attorney. Unfortunately.

[Robert H]

5 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I will give you the bottom line first. Then the arguments.

Bottom line first: You have to decide if the cost of litigation is less than the cost of a new GTN650xi. The value of you present unit is zero because the Garmin dealer, the shop will be required by it's insurance carrier to report the unit as stolen to Garmin, you have no warranty, no service and may not be able to buy a data base renewal for it. Finally insurance companies have lawyers, lots of them as a cost of doing business, you will have one lawyer and paying him out of pocket. Each dollar paid is a dollar you could put towards a legitimate unit if you lose. Ask yourself this question. Imagine this was a car and the sales manager sold you a car he stole. Could you keep car? The fruit of a poisonous tree rots very fast. 

Your allegation: You selected a shop to purchase and install the unit in good faith. You were unwittingly lured into a larcenous scheme by the shop's agent, a larcenous manager. You were unaware of the shops dealership agreement with Garmin that prohibited direct purchases by the larcenous shop manager. Because of this fraud perpetrated upon you by the shop's agent, you should be entitled upon reimbursement of the 20% the shop lost in markup to have the unit listed with Garmin as legitimate and the insurance company should reimburse the shop for the remaining losses.; or 

The everyone rolls around in the mud strategy:You could also file suit against the shop because it's agent duped you into a larcenous arrangement because you believed as an agent of a Garmin dealer his actions were legitimate. The shop would have to file an additional claim with the insurance company and the suit would be joined with the insurance company suit against you. To do so you also need to file a police report of "theft by deception" against the shop manager and press home the charge. In the meantime, you got a very limited GTN650nxi and hope nothing goes wrong with it. 

Insurance company allegation: I say insurance company and not the shop because there is now a claim and they are the aggrieved party and the shop's policy requires them to agree to all subrogation and collection efforts including listing your unit as stolen with Garmin. The insurance company is going to say you should have known that nobody but an authorized dealer (the shop) can buy from Garmin wholesale. It will allege you are a co-conspirator no matter how unwitting you were. It will depose you and ask you questions like, "how did you expect warranty when a dealer was not the original purchaser" and "why did you think the shop manager would give up the shop's ordinary and customary mark up for you." It will get very uncomfortable because you will have to admit the deal was just a little bit out of the ordinary.

What I would do: I would tell the insurance company that even if you gave them back the unit and they could resell it, it is still a used unit. I would offer to pay a used price for it as long as their client properly registers the unit for warranty with Garmin and clears its title with Garmin. Even if you had to pay a little over the used value it is cheaper than giving it back (if you lose against them) and having to buy a new unit at retail. Then lick your wounds.

 

 

[goalstop]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Money spent on a good attorney at this point could likely save you a lot in the long run.   I wouldn't make another move until engaging a competent attorney cognizant in this area.   Don't surrender the unit to anybody, don't commit to any action to anybody, until you get some legal advice.   Even if you do what you think is right, it could be the exact wrong thing from a legal perspective.

It sounds to me like you're a victim here, but the other entities will have their interests in mind, not yours.   Make sure your interest is addressed properly from a legal perspective, and the only real way to do that properly is with the help of a competent attorney who knows the issues.

Just my two cents.

 

What type of attorney is the right one for something like this?

[Robert H]

This is not specific legal advice. However, a few comments.  I like the thinking put forth by GeeBee.  I am not a commercial law attorney, however, I am a litigator in another area of the law.  If I were in your situation, I would simply try to work it out with the shop, Garmin, and the insurance company, and put my faith in Garmin. I would be thinking if I can get Garman in my court that would be really really helpful. Litigation would be absolutely my last resort. Kind of like throwing good money after bad! It will take forever with no certain result  and with no handle on how much it will cost. If it were ME, I would take the position that I dealt with an agent of the dealer in good faith. 

These kind of stories are sad as aviation  historically has been a group of really great folks dealing straight up.

good luck! 

[Robert H]

19 minutes ago, goalstop said:

What type of attorney is the right one for something like this?

If you decide to hire an attorney, you simply need a commercial law attorney. You do not need an aviation attorney in my humble  opinion. With  due respect to Eric, I certainly understand his thinking. I am simply concerned that the fees may outweigh any benefit of having an attorney. There is no question that an attorney would be helpful. The perfect situation would be that you have  a relative that does  commercial law. If you end up hiring an Atty, it may simply be a result of you saying, I’m done! I don’t care what this costs you’re not gonna screw me! But then again, that’s just me. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Robert H

[jlunseth]

5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m definitely no lawyer, but if he bought it from a legitimate agent of the shop, shouldn’t the shop be responsible for refunding his purchase price if he gives it back?  I get that the guy was stealing, but the shop hired him and he was stealing from them.  The insurance company should be after the crook here, no?

We have a bingo. This was the shops employee and agent. The shop is responsible for his conduct. I would get a good, inexpensive local lawyer from a small firm to write a letter saying that, and that the problem is theirs, not yours. The word fraud comes to mind, you were defrauded by someone whose conduct the shop is responsible for.

[Skates97]

15 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

We have a bingo. This was the shops employee and agent. The shop is responsible for his conduct. I would get a good, inexpensive local lawyer from a small firm to write a letter saying that, and that the problem is theirs, not yours. The word fraud comes to mind, you were defrauded by someone whose conduct the shop is responsible for.

And hopefully the shop has a policy that covers fraud/theft by employees.  It is a part of of most commercial policies.

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, goalstop said:

What type of attorney is the right one for something like this?

In what State did this all happen (where the Garmin was purchased and installed)?  Laws vary somewhat in each State.  Your profile indicates that you are based in Georgia.

[goalstop]

2 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

In what State did this all happen (where the Garmin was purchased and installed)?  Laws vary somewhat in each State.  Your profile indicates that you are based in Georgia.

Correct - Georgia

[ragedracer1977]

3 hours ago, jlunseth said:

We have a bingo. This was the shops employee and agent. The shop is responsible for his conduct. I would get a good, inexpensive local lawyer from a small firm to write a letter saying that, and that the problem is theirs, not yours. The word fraud comes to mind, you were defrauded by someone whose conduct the shop is responsible for.

Devils advocate… 

I’m shopping for a TV at Best Buy. The manger tells me to meet him around back by the dumpster and he can get me the TV for 20% off, just pay him directly….

 When Best Buy finds out, can I really claim it was up and up?

[MikeOH]

Just how was this 20% discount explained to you? I mean, here’s the manager of the shop saying you could avoid the shop’s markup…how did you think that was going to work??

Now it’s blown up in your face! Apply the follow the money rule… who’s out the money? Answer: you and the insurance company! Since the manager had the shop buy the Garmin and did not pay them for it, you are in possession of stolen property. Whether you can argue you were duped is irrelevant.

Best case resolution IMHO is to pay the insurance company what they paid the shop and get Garmin to take your SN off the stolen equipment list so you can get updates and service.

Anything else is going to cost more and entail additional misery.