Teflon Hoses , proof that they are "on condition"

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Hey Folks, I am getting the 1967 F back up and running.  I got the engine back a few months ago and have been installing it and repairing a ton of cracked cowling, baffling, and other differed maintenance.  My IA wants the hoses changed, I said they were AE466 hoses (Teflon integrated firesleeve) and he said they needed to be changed.  They were installed in 2009 with an overhauled engine.  That engine lasted 300 hours because of an alternated air door that was opening in flight, the 1967 model does not have a warning that this is happening.  Also 670200 had a turbo and was converted back to NA in 2009 and they left alot of openings in the air box that were not visible without moving the lower cowl.  Anyhow she died of dirt ingestion and now I have an overhauled engine, that I will be sending oil samples in to prevent something like this again.  The cowl is fixed and should be air tight!  Going back to the hoses, they look perfect and have 300 hours on them.  Should I spend $2500 on new hoses, if so what's the point of AE466 if they have to be changed as often as the cheaper hose.  I know that airworthiness is subjective and in the eye of the beholder but I hate to throw away $2500 on nothing.  I personally believe these hoses will last the life of this engine.  What can I show my IA to help change his mind?  I'm open to opinions, can't hurt my feelings.  

Thanks 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

Just now, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Hey Folks, I am getting the 1967 F back up and running.  I got the engine back a few months ago and have been installing it and repairing a ton of cracked cowling, baffling, and other differed maintenance.  My IA wants the hoses changed, I said they were AE466 hoses (Teflon integrated firesleeve) and he said they needed to be changed.  They were installed in 2009 with an overhauled engine.  That engine lasted 300 hours because of an alternated air door that was opening in flight, the 1967 model does not have a warning that this is happening.  Also 670200 had a turbo and was converted back to NA in 2009 and they left alot of openings in the air box that were not visible without moving the lower cowl.  Anyhow she died of dirt ingestion and now I have an overhauled engine, that I will be sending oil samples in to prevent something like this again.  The cowl is fixed and should be air tight!  Going back to the hoses, they look perfect and have 300 hours on them.  Should I spend $2500 on new hoses, if so what's the point of AE466 if they have to be changed as often as the cheaper hose.  I know that airworthiness is subjective and in the eye of the beholder but I hate to throw away $2500 on nothing.  I personally believe these hoses will last the life of this engine.  What can I show my IA to help change his mind?  I'm open to opinions, can't hurt my feelings.  

Thanks 

Oh and Spruce says all hoses should be changed every 8 years regardless of type.  Alot of manufactures say the teflon is non life-limited for extra long shelf-life, some say extra long service life.  I feel like there is a slight conflict of interest in selling hoses to replace otherwise serviceable hoses.  

[PT20J]

While Parker maintains that the PTFE hoses have an unlimited shelf life, it does not have any recommended service life because service conditions can vary significantly. Since there is no recommended service life, most take this to mean than they should be replaced on condition rather than at any specific interval. The Safety Guide in the Stratoflex 124 hose catalog says:

Specific replacement intervals must be considered based on previous service life, government or industry recommendations, or when failures could result in unacceptable downtime, damage, or injury risk. 

The Safety Guide also provides installation and inspection information.

Skip

SPD-PTFE_Hose124.pdf

[Guest]

Your mid sixties Mooney manual does not have a Chapter 4 with hard life limits that you must adhere to.  So in my opinion they’re replaced on an “On Condition “ basis.  

[ArtVandelay]

Your mid sixties Mooney manual does not have a Chapter 4 with hard life limits that you must adhere to.  So in my opinion they’re replaced on an “On Condition “ basis.  

So can you tell the condition of a teflon hose from the outside?

Regular hoses would get stiff or maybe crack…do teflon hoses do this?

[LANCECASPER]

My nosey neighbor/IA/hoarder stopped by my hangar during an annual a few year ago and insisted that my hoses needed to be replaced (also insisted that the ground wire on my Mooney Bravo was completely inadequate the way it left the factory, among a few other things). My IA, who used to be Mooney's Service Center director set him straight on the hoses  by explaining "on-condition" and set him straight on the other things as well. Thankfully the neighbor hasn't been back. If he comes back I know a good pest control guy 

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

So can you tell the condition of a teflon hose from the outside?

Regular hoses would get stiff or maybe crack…do teflon hoses do this?

There is an AD applicable to Piper Cherokee series engine hoses, AD2017-14-04.  It list some inspection criteria for hoses and says that installing a Teflon hose assembly is terminating action for the AD.  That would be a good standard to use.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

9 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

There is an AD applicable to Piper Cherokee series engine hoses, AD2017-14-04.  It list some inspection criteria for hoses and says that installing a Teflon hose assembly is terminating action for the AD.  That would be a good standard to use.

I'll print that AD out and I printed the Aeroquip product page for AE466 hose that says "Non-age sensitive for extra-long service life".  Hopefully he's good with that if not I will start the bargaining to start replacing them next year.  The cost of running new oil lines to the oil cooler are $800 plus for parts and the oil cooler relocation is $750 with hoses (because they are so much shorter and they aren't teflon).  The hoses with the oil cooler should last ten years then a significantly shorter and cheaper set of teflon hoses to replace those.  Thanks DOC!

[jetdriven]

The later  models SMM  say that rubber hoses should be replaced every seven years, but Teflon hoses are on condition. Also, AC 4313 talks about hoses, and it does say that Teflon hoses will take a set after a while and they should not be bent into a tight radius and to use care when moving them or replacing them, because it could form a kink in the inner liner which is not visible. Thus, a Teflon hose that takes a set is not unairworthy, it just needs to be bent or moved carefully.They put Teflon hoses on spacecraft and 14  years is laughable given the hours you have flown it, actually mine are  going on 12 years and I've got no plans to replace them anytime soon

[Fly Boomer]

11 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The later  models SMM  say that rubber hoses should be replaced every seven years, but Teflon hoses are on condition. Also, AC 4313 talks about hoses, and it does say that Teflon hoses will take a set after a while and they should not be bent into a tight radius and to use care when moving them or replacing them, because it could form a kink in the inner liner which is not visible. Thus, a Teflon hose that takes a set is not unairworthy, it just needs to be bent or moved carefully.They put Teflon hoses on spacecraft and 14  years is laughable given the hours you have flown it, actually mine are  going on 12 years and I've got no plans to replace them anytime soon

I could research this, but you probably have the answers at hand:  Are these things made like a hose with fire sleeve -- inner hose with a covering?  If so, what is the inner hose make of?  I guess I thought they were PTFE through-and-through, and that was why they were smaller in diameter than a conventional hose with fire sleeve.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I could research this, but you probably have the answers at hand:  Are these things made like a hose with fire sleeve -- inner hose with a covering?  If so, what is the inner hose make of?  I guess I thought they were PTFE through-and-through, and that was why they were smaller in diameter than a conventional hose with fire sleeve.

Teflon liner, stainless steel braid, fire sleeve covering.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, M20Doc said:

Teflon liner, stainless steel braid, fire sleeve covering.

So the outer sleeve is not Teflon?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

I'll print that AD out and I printed the Aeroquip product page for AE466 hose that says "Non-age sensitive for extra-long service life".  Hopefully he's good with that if not I will start the bargaining to start replacing them next year.  The cost of running new oil lines to the oil cooler are $800 plus for parts and the oil cooler relocation is $750 with hoses (because they are so much shorter and they aren't teflon).  The hoses with the oil cooler should last ten years then a significantly shorter and cheaper set of teflon hoses to replace those.  Thanks DOC!

Although he doesn’t hang out here anymore GeeBee Aero Products had a hose shop as well.  You might check with him if you have to buy hoses, he made the baffles seal kits as well.

www.csobeech.com

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

So the outer sleeve is not Teflon?

From the manual Skip posted above,

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, M20Doc said:

From the manual Skip posted above,

Well that's embarrassing.  I just read that document a few minutes ago, but I was looking for additional guidance on when the hoses should be replaced.  Thanks, Clarence.

[slowflyin]

Gee Bee supplied me with new teflon hoses when I OH last year.  If I remember correctly, he advised a pressure test is used to recertify them after so many years.  I'm thinking it was ten.  He's certainly your best source for information.  Check Beechtalk, I think he still participates with those folks.  

[EricJ]

14 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

So the outer sleeve is not Teflon?

No the inner part that carries the fluid is teflon.    Teflon is subject to damage by small nicks or abrasions, so it is almost always covered in steel braid armor or something similarly robust to protect the inner teflon hose.  

[EricJ]

15 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

I'll print that AD out and I printed the Aeroquip product page for AE466 hose that says "Non-age sensitive for extra-long service life".  Hopefully he's good with that if not I will start the bargaining to start replacing them next year.  The cost of running new oil lines to the oil cooler are $800 plus for parts and the oil cooler relocation is $750 with hoses (because they are so much shorter and they aren't teflon).  The hoses with the oil cooler should last ten years then a significantly shorter and cheaper set of teflon hoses to replace those.  Thanks DOC!

When you do go to replace them there are several hose shops around the valley that can duplicate hoses.    Parker Stores (now called Hose Advantage) or stores like Bridgestone Hosepower.    There's a Hosepower shop on 29th Ave and Grand, not too horribly far from KGYR.

[N201MKTurbo]

32 minutes ago, EricJ said:

When you do go to replace them there are several hose shops around the valley that can duplicate hoses.    Parker Stores (now called Hose Advantage) or stores like Bridgestone Hosepower.    There's a Hosepower shop on 29th Ave and Grand, not too horribly far from KGYR.

Those shops cannot make aircraft hoses. The only hose shop I know of in the valley that does aircraft hoses is Aero Performance in Chandler.

[rickseeman]

20 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

  My IA wants the hoses changed, I said they were AE466 hoses (Teflon integrated firesleeve) and he said they needed to be changed.  They were installed in 2009 with an overhauled engine.  they look perfect and have 300 hours on them. 

I imagine there are many airplanes out the that have 30-40 year old hoses with thousands of hours on them. I assume mine are 28 years old and probably aren't as high of quality as yours.. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Send a letter to the FSDO and ask their opinion. Send as much info as possible so they don’t have to look it up. Tell them you are AOG and in a hurry. 

[EricJ]

37 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Those shops cannot make aircraft hoses. The only hose shop I know of in the valley that does aircraft hoses is Aero Performance in Chandler.

An A&P can make hoses from bulk stock with the proper fitting tools per AC 43.13, or supervise their construction at a shop.   Might have to pre-order Stratoflex at a Parker shop or someplace like Comoso.

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

An A&P can make hoses from bulk stock with the proper fitting tools per AC 43.13, or supervise their construction at a shop.   Might have to pre-order Stratoflex at a Parker shop or someplace like Comoso.

 

 

I have had hoses made by all the places you mentioned. I have even been in their fabrication shops. I wouldn't put a hose on my plane made by any of them except Aero Performance.

[jetdriven]

AERO hose shop in granite city IL is also good. significantly cheaper than PHT which really went up

[PT20J]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have had hoses made by all the places you mentioned. I have even been in their fabrication shops. I wouldn't put a hose on my plane made by any of them except Aero Performance.

Which begs the question: Who's airplanes did you put those hoses on?