Hours on your Continental 310 hp 550 Cylinders

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

So you’re basically paying for a blank logbook?

Yes and to some people that means something. 

Let me put it to you this way, if you had two identical airplanes and you knew nothing of Gann engines, but one had a Gann engine and other had a factory zero time, which airplane would you buy?

[Niko182]

19 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Yes and to some people that means something. 

Let me put it to you this way, if you had two identical airplanes and you knew nothing of Gann engines, but one had a Gann engine and other had a factory zero time, which airplane would you buy?

It’s sad because the gann will be cheaper but IMO have a significantly smoother and better built engine. Also if it had the PAP overhaul done, also more power

[A64Pilot]

9 hours ago, Niko182 said:

Couple weeks ago at 16500 over the Colorado Rockies, I couldn’t get a CHT above 305 with the lowest being around 250. That was at 11 gph, so just barely LOP.

When you get like that, enrichen it. Even in Fl on a cold for Fl day I can’t get temps up where I like them at 23 squared and  LOP, but if I enrichen it, the airspeed and temps come right up. Of course I’m burning more fuel too.

The 50 ROP is the worst place you can run your engine is a partial truth, at lower power you can run it anywhere you like without any issue, even peak or 50 ROP, up high without a turbo 50 or 100 ROP are perfectly good EGT’s

At those high altitudes if your an NA motor it’s probably better to run 50 ROP than LOP just to get some heat into the motor, but understand the heats not coming from being ROP, 50 ROP is cooler than just barely LOP, it’s coming from increased power.

I am not against LOP, except for high power I’m always LOP, but I haven’t taken the O2 bottle out of the wall locker in years either, just LOP is not always the best answer, up high without a turbo you lose so much power LOP perhaps it’s not the best mixture up that high.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

The problem with Continentals is their Zero Time prices are hard to compete with for a shop that has to buy parts on the market.

Years ago both manufacturers knew they weren’t going to make it on just new engines anymore as that market dried up.

They couldn’t undercut field overhauls their overhead is so high, but they could increase their parts prices to increase field overhauls enough so that they could compete.

The increased parts prices of course revived and or kicked off the PMA parts, so they were only partially successful and gave us some healthy competition for parts.

But no one except Lycoming builds the angle valve cylinders? If so I guess there isn’t enough of them to interest the PMA folks?

A good engine builder whether it be a car motor, bike or airplane motor can build a significantly better motor than the factory, by “blueprinting” and balancing to much closer tolerances than the factory does. Often it starts with CCing the heads which means measuring precisely the combustion chamber volume, then polishing out the heads until the volume is identical, then clean up the ports and making all ports match exactly the largest one, so you still have a stock motor that the FAA is OK with because you didn’t change anything, you just made all cylinders exactly the same and balanced all rotating assemblies in Gann’s case to less than 1 gram, which is unimaginably small, there are 28 grams in one ounce, so the crank and rods, pistons etc are within 1/28 of an ounce of being identical.

Many racing bodies are very specific as to what’s allowed to be done and often the difference between a fast motor and one that isn’t is due to how perfectly it’s built.

[GeeBee]

I agree with all of you, but as I always say, never let the truth get in way of a good narrative. Right now in the used market, zero time is the "good narrative".

 

 

[A64Pilot]

Oh, and an airframe manufacturer can zero time an airplane too, say they put 100 hours on it for Certification flight testing, they can zero time it to sell, and often the engine and prop manufacturer will also zero time too.

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

Does it ever concern you that the fuel selector gets so hot? My wife doesn’t like cold so I run the cabin heat generously, but that durn fuel selector gets so hot I almost burn my fingers switching tanks! Makes me a little nervous but I shrug it off. If it was dangerous they would not have designed it that way?

Mine has a strip of velcro on the front of the housing.  I think it was for some sort of deflector

I have not noticed mine getting that hot.

[Igor_U]

19 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

So you’re basically paying for a blank logbook?

Pretty much! 

one thing no one motioned when ordering the factory engine (at least Lycoming, that I bought) is that your case can be cracked and crankshaft (or some other parts) be beyond the service limits and you'll still pay the same price avoiding nasty surprise. In some cases it's worth it.

 

 

[Brandt]

On 1/31/2023 at 6:29 PM, carusoam said:

The good news…

1) Some people have reported… with careful use… the Continental cylinders can go the distance…

2) Other people have reported… with less than careful use… swapping them out somewhere near half TBO of the engine…

3) A few have reported… constant flight using the full Flaming Dragon Mode… nets an amazing short cylinder life of 1/3 TBO…

4) Everyone that has tried their first PPI on a plane with a Continental engine… gets surprising results… that make you think twice about the plane as you review the logs…

 

Chances are…

5) You don’t always fly in full flaming dragon mode… LOP has meaning to you…

6) You probably watch your CHTs on most flights using an engine monitor… 380°F has meaning to you…

7) The mechanic with this recommendation may not be familiar or equipped for measuring the cylinder compression for a Continental…

8) There is something wrong with the cylinders that they have such low compressions…  what is low compression for a Continental IO550 cylinder?

 

Usual next steps…

9) Fly the plane before taking the compressions…

10) Use the appropriate orifice for the Continental cylinders

 

The bad news…

11) You and your service have gone through all of the hoops and actually have bad compressions…

12) be on the look out for bad valves, and cylinder cracks…

 

Sooooo…

It is unlikely that you need to change the cylinders… so test properly again, with both eyes open…

Get an eye that can fit down inside the cylinder and be on the lookout for pizzas, and waffle patterns… or rust…

Post pics..

 

If the valves don’T show their pizzas… and the cylinder walls don’t have cross hatches…. You have probably found your cylinders have issues…

Compression tests are a simple test to use… to know if we need to look further… fortunately, today, we have methods of looking further….

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

Hmm.  At what power setting does one enter “Flaming Dragon Mode”. I’ve heard mixed reports on the TSIO-550.  

1. 30.5 continuous is too much.

2.  Look, it’s already a significantly derated engine.  30.5 is nothing.

3. Keep the TIT below 1600 and the CHT’s below 380.  Nothing else matters.

4. 27/2400 isn’t enough to keep the engine hot enough to burn off the lead.

Your thoughts?

 

[A64Pilot]

On 2/2/2023 at 2:15 PM, Igor_U said:

Pretty much! 

one thing no one motioned when ordering the factory engine (at least Lycoming, that I bought) is that your case can be cracked and crankshaft (or some other parts) be beyond the service limits and you'll still pay the same price avoiding nasty surprise. In some cases it's worth it.

 

 

If you follow the mantra of run it until it starts making metal forget about TBO, then your better off going with an overhaul / exchange, because that metal is coming off of something that’s expensive and very often has worn something else expensive too. You’ll likely spend more money than an overhaul / exchange if you overhaul yourself, and have less resale.

However if you TBO one meaning take apart a perfectly good running engine just because it’s at 2000 hours, then it’s very likely all the expensive stuff is still good, and only things need replacing are the bearings etc, although I send the rods off for magnaflux and “rebuilt” and the crank off to be magnaflux and polish, the case for inspection and welding if necessary etc.

‘Once bearings wear the babbitt off and you get into copper, then the crankshaft begins to wear, but change bearings before then and the crank sees little if any wear.

That resets the clock for another 2000 hours which for average Joe is 20 years

[aviatoreb]

On 2/1/2023 at 12:35 PM, MooneyMitch said:

Here on the central coast of Kalifornia.................we're feeling cold as our nighttime temps are dipping down into the low 40's................spoiled we are, I say!

 

When I was in Pasadena last summer visiting my son that weekend was 110F.  I was… uncomfortable.

Yesterday morning here it was -25F and windy so windchill was -50F.  I was …. Uncomfortable.

I flew yesterday afternoon for 30 min when the wind stopped and ground temps got up to -5F since it’s been two weeks and I hate to let it stand.  I ran it at 72% even though I was just noodling around just to keep temps up.  I need to get back to the hangar to download data to analyze what temps actually were but darn I was frozen by the last 25 feet of the flight which is the struggle to push it back into the hangar on ice.  Took about 40 min for 25 feet.  My tug was useless and my block and tackle hand winch was misbehaving in part because my fingers were cold.

One nuisance of extreme cold weather is on taxi for take off before flying there isn’t a lot of airflow and the moisture of my breathing freezes to the inside of the windows and can obscure visibility so I have to turn on the cabin vents to keep air moving which is not what you want for comfort in cold weather but you must for visibility.  Once I’m flying that’s less of a problem.

Edited February 5, 2023 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

So I am shopping engine shops these days since my engine is pretty high time and its about time.  Maybe for next winter.  I had thought to do it even maybe this winter, but time got away from me.

As far as I can tell, a continental shop reman is not so terrific.  They use parts from all sorts of engines, and you don't know so much what you get to fly behind and their workmanship history is not so good.  But you do get a nice shiny new log book.

Vs a boutique shop like Gann, or Powermaster, or Victor (varying prices) so it seems you likely get a better performing and more reliable engine to fly behind, at likely a higher cost? But in the grand scheme of how stupid expensive it is to operate these things... maybe not that much more?

So then I think, am I going to spend a lot of money and buy a crappy engine and a nice log book for the next owner, or am I going to buy a quality engine to enjoy for myself.  Oh - and I have no plan to sell my airplane any time soon.  You can see which way I am leaning.

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

So I am shopping engine shops these days since my engine is pretty high time and its about time.  Maybe for next winter.  I had thought to do it even maybe this winter, but time got away from me.

As far as I can tell, a continental shop reman is not so terrific.  They use parts from all sorts of engines, and you don't know so much what you get to fly behind and their workmanship history is not so good.  But you do get a nice shiny new log book.

Vs a boutique shop like Gann, or Powermaster, or Victor (varying prices) so it seems you likely get a better performing and more reliable engine to fly behind, at likely a higher cost? But in the grand scheme of how stupid expensive it is to operate these things... maybe not that much more?

So then I think, am I going to spend a lot of money and buy a crappy engine and a nice log book for the next owner, or am I going to buy a quality engine to enjoy for myself.  Oh - and I have no plan to sell my airplane any time soon.  You can see which way I am leaning.

Don't forget RAM.  They told me a year ago they could build an engine for me.  I don't remember if they were competitive, but one could argue that they know that particular engine better than anyone else.

[ilovecornfields]

35 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

So I am shopping engine shops these days since my engine is pretty high time and its about time.  Maybe for next winter.  I had thought to do it even maybe this winter, but time got away from me.

As far as I can tell, a continental shop reman is not so terrific.  They use parts from all sorts of engines, and you don't know so much what you get to fly behind and their workmanship history is not so good.  But you do get a nice shiny new log book.

Vs a boutique shop like Gann, or Powermaster, or Victor (varying prices) so it seems you likely get a better performing and more reliable engine to fly behind, at likely a higher cost? But in the grand scheme of how stupid expensive it is to operate these things... maybe not that much more?

So then I think, am I going to spend a lot of money and buy a crappy engine and a nice log book for the next owner, or am I going to buy a quality engine to enjoy for myself.  Oh - and I have no plan to sell my airplane any time soon.  You can see which way I am leaning.

How shiny is the logbook?

I was hoping to wait and run my engine only on unleaded AVGAS. It’s mid time and I live in California so there’s a good chance that will happen. 

[aviatoreb]

22 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

How shiny is the logbook?

I was hoping to wait and run my engine only on unleaded AVGAS. It’s mid time and I live in California so there’s a good chance that will happen. 

I wonder if running 2 or 3 hundred hours on avgas before unleaded becomes widely available would be any kind of problem - does running unleaded over time clean out the lead yuk a bit?

[aviatoreb]

54 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Don't forget RAM.  They told me a year ago they could build an engine for me.  I don't remember if they were competitive, but one could argue that they know that particular engine better than anyone else.

I wonder why I forgot about them.  Gann uses the raam cam in their performance build which is what I would get if I went with them.  powermaster uses superior cam as default which is very similar to the raam cam but I think he would use the raam cam if I were interested.  Which I am interested in one of these better cams.  Surely Raam uses the raam cam.  I am mostly looking for a performance boutique build.  Victor though is likely not on my shopping list since they seem to be significantly more expensive than even the other more expensive boutiques.

[Fly Boomer]

24 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Victor though is likely not on my shopping list since they seem to be significantly more expensive than even the other more expensive boutiques.

I have not looked at Victor lately, but I believe they have a variety of builds ranging from expensive to OMG! 

[Fly Boomer]

37 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I wonder why I forgot about them.  Gann uses the raam cam in their performance build which is what I would get if I went with them.  powermaster uses superior cam as default which is very similar to the raam cam but I think he would use the raam cam if I were interested.  Which I am interested in one of these better cams.  Surely Raam uses the raam cam.  I am mostly looking for a performance boutique build.  Victor though is likely not on my shopping list since they seem to be significantly more expensive than even the other more expensive boutiques.

I just visited RAM and, on second thought, I'm not sure I would use them.  Their business is so specific to Cessna twins that, even though it is the TSIO-520-NB, I would be concerned that they might introduce some anomaly that the Mooney would not like. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I wonder why I forgot about them.  Gann uses the raam cam in their performance build which is what I would get if I went with them.  powermaster uses superior cam as default which is very similar to the raam cam but I think he would use the raam cam if I were interested.  Which I am interested in one of these better cams.  Surely Raam uses the raam cam.  I am mostly looking for a performance boutique build.  Victor though is likely not on my shopping list since they seem to be significantly more expensive than even the other more expensive boutiques.

RAM would be another contender, they do know the engine series quite well.  They also have their own PMA crankcase and camshafts among many other parts.  You’d have to discuss any accessory parts that may be unique to the Rocket installation.

[MooneyMitch]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Oh - and I have no plan to sell my airplane any time soon.  You can see which way I am leaning.

Yep, buy the quality product you want…… you’re purchasing an engine, not buying a price.  You won’t miss the additional funds for such, and you’ll sure have a great engine! 

[carusoam]

On 2/4/2023 at 11:09 AM, Brandt said:

Hmm.  At what power setting does one enter “Flaming Dragon Mode”. I’ve heard mixed reports on the TSIO-550.  

1. 30.5 continuous is too much.

2.  Look, it’s already a significantly derated engine.  30.5 is nothing.

3. Keep the TIT below 1600 and the CHT’s below 380.  Nothing else matters.

4. 27/2400 isn’t enough to keep the engine hot enough to burn off the lead.

Your thoughts?

 

Flaming Dragon Mode… is essentially the highest power choice in the POH…

Where it is perfectly legal to fly there… things won’t break…

But the economics are wallet wise, less friendly….

Engine handles it extremely well… it’s more of a cylinder wear question, or choice…

At 65% power… cylinders have been known to go the distance…

At 75% power… people are willing to trade cylinders at the halfway point…

Using higher power… some have seen their first set of cylinders being done at 1/3 the way to TBO…

 

Being NA… and typically fly above 10k’… I’m in the less than 65%bhp category quite often…

CHTs are a huge part of cylinder life… and long climbs to the FLs can’t be avoided…

The thin air found in the FLs is a bit tough on the cooling process…

Some people prefer the outright speed available with the TN’d Mooney… and cylinders are part of the operating costs… 

380°F, and 1600°F… are great targets…

People with the IO550 have been known to use upwards of 30gph FF to maintain those temps…

The O has smaller cooling air inlets on the cowls… the Acclaim got nice big nostrils for the thin air… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

How shiny is the logbook?

Very shiny.   The cover really is glossy

And large, 8.5x11.  Not one of those little jobbies.

[Pinecone]

The one other nice thing about a factory reman is, you can order the engine, wait for it to arrive, THEN down the airplane to install it.

With an overhaul, the airplane is down for the time to remove it, crate it, ship it, overhaul it, ship it back and reinstall it.   With the current situation, that can be months.

[carusoam]

Factory reman can be an incredibly quick turn around….

When Continental has the inventory… it only takes two weeks to complete/finish the build to your spec, and another two weeks before and after time for shipping, handling and paperwork…

 

But, if the engine work is ground strike related… getting a new prop can take a whole bunch of months to happen… 

 

We had an IO550 built up to the (n) spec… around 2012…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

The one other nice thing about a factory reman is, you can order the engine, wait for it to arrive, THEN down the airplane to install it.

With an overhaul, the airplane is down for the time to remove it, crate it, ship it, overhaul it, ship it back and reinstall it.   With the current situation, that can be months.

Not necessarily, in the case of a Rocket, you could order and exchange engine from RAM or any other large engine overhauler.  Many times RAM has core engine built up and ready to ship in a few day, depending on the exact dash number.