Next Airplane . . .

[Seth]

Hello MooneySpace:

I'm happy to announce that my family has grown. My third child is a health baby girl and is now 8 months old. So that means I have a 7 year old, 5 year old, and 8 month old. My son is special needs and often we will bring our Au Pair with us on family trips. Though we have not made many trips during the pandemic (we have by minivan and I've shuttle family on two back and forth trips in the Mooney), I have a math problem. My amazing Mooney Missile with a 1096 pound useful load and 185knot all day ROP cruise (170-180 LOP - she's topped out ROP max speed at 192 knots) only has four seats.

I've looked a lot of different possibilities for my next aircraft that will have at least six seats. A Piper Cheyenne would be perfect. But I'm not ready to both purchase a plane at that price point nor feed it in annual costs. I wanted pressurized but that's not going to happen with this purchase. What I need is 6 seats, 800-900 payload plus fuel. Throw out some suggestions as I may not have come up with those yet. I'm leaning toward an A-36 Bonanza, Saratoga, B-58 Baron or Seneca III. I've ruled out the C414 C340 C210 and Aerostar right now, but that may change. I thought a 414 would be perfect cabin size, ice protection, pressurized, but it'll run way to much per year just on the fixed costs alone.

Also, this means the Missile is going to be for sale very soon. Please PM me if interested. It has a low time motor and is the only Missile with a 4 blade MT prop.

Thanks for all of your suggestions!

-Seth

[glbtrottr]

Why not a seneca ii?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pinecone]

MU-2?

Was sold under the Mooney banner at one point.

[Greg Ellis]

When we were younger and my Dad still flew, we had an E-55 Baron.  It was great when myself, my sister and my brother were smaller and much younger and it would carry six and baggage and fuel with no issues.  As we grew older and got bigger we quickly outgrew that airplane.  It did not have club seating and was difficult for larger passengers to get to the rear seats.  When I was 9 I sat in the very back because I could crawl through the baggage door.  Same with my sister.

When we outgrew that, my Dad got into a 340.  It was comfortable for 6 and could haul a house if you needed.  It liked to fly in the flight levels and was a fun plane.  Very solid airplane as well especially for IFR flying.  He was in a 3 way partnership with it and it made the expenses quite reasonable.

I write his because be wary that you will quickly outgrow a Baron unless you get the club seating with easier access.  The Baron is a terrific airplane though.  It got us through a lot of flights without one hiccup.  The day my Dad sold it, the new owner pushed it back into the hangar and bent the wing.

[Greg Ellis]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

MU-2?

Was sold under the Mooney banner at one point.

That may be the same kind of price point that is keeping him from getting a Piper Cheyenne.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, Greg Ellis said:

That may be the same kind of price point that is keeping him from getting a Piper Cheyenne.

Jet A resets all previous "price points".  

[WilliamR]

I've been in a similar market for an upgrade for some time. Although, I don't need 5-6 like the OP. Really, I need 4 and won't upgrade unless pressurized. Here's where I come out on planes less than $500,000 in order of interest. All-In Costs ("AIC") assume about 125-150 hrs/yr. and insurance normalized after a year or two. Costs were determined after talking to actual owners.

1. PA-46 (preferably a Conti powered version for slightly better range and payload) - AIC somewhere between $350-$400/hr.

2. Aerostar 601P/602P/700- AIC ~$700/hr

3. C340 - AIC ~$600-$700/hr

4. MU-2 - AIC ~$800/hr. 

5. King Air 90 - AIC ~$900-$1000/hr

Can any of these planes be operated slightly less than above? Yes. Could I? Not likely. 

5-6 people in a BE-58/A-36/Toga will be cramped over time even if three are kids (what with all the kid accoutrement). Frankly, 6 in a PA-46 or even an Aerostar is a bit tight.

William

[Fly Boomer]

18 hours ago, Seth said:

What I need is 6 seats, 800-900 payload plus fuel.

Most obvious choice is the A-36, but if you plan to have more kids, you might be ahead to skip the 6-place, and go for something larger.

[exM20K]

@Seth congrats on completing a hat trick of kids.  Before abandoning the Mooney, you might consider exactly how many full-family trips you will make as the kids grow up in the next few years.  With our 2, once they were into middle school, the activities started to collide with our travel plans- think travel sports, gymnastics, ballet etc.  we found it impossible to make the quick trips that we used to when they were younger.  We wound up with one or two big trips a year, usually in the RV. 

The six seaters you mentioned will probably be insufficient at the outset or very soon.  Kids, diaper bags, strollers, etc and later they just keep getting bigger. So at first, you cube out, and later you weight out.  Depending on you range requirements, a big twin like a Navajo would work, but if your trip is long, it’s too slow and burns too much gas to have a lot of range. 
 

I meandered into the pressurized twin Cessna cult for a bit, did a prebuy on a RAM VII 340, and then flew it.  I know, not the right orderin which to do things.  After the flight, I ran away.  The plane was so inferior to my acclaim that it wasn’t even close.  If you do go down the twin Cessna route, I can report a very good experience with TAS Aviation in Defiance, OH.  They are expensive but also knowledgeable and comprehensive in the scope of what you need for a successful ownership experience.

Good luck.

-dan

[StevenL757]

I believe Dan @exM20K and I went through this same experience with 340A exploration awhile back; where we both walked (or ran) away from our own respective C340 deals at the time.  I’m not saying I wouldn’t go back in that direction, but it made me consider the 58P Baron world a bit more closely, as well as the C421 arena.  If going the C-route, I’d certainly use TAS.  If going the 58P route, I’d probably use Alan Speakmaster in Danbury, CT.

Good luck, Seth, and congrats on the new family addition.  :-)

[carusoam]

There are only a few reasons people leave Mooney ownership…

1) They need six seats..

2) They go turbine…

A few people around here… found the PA46T to be that next step…

The first PA46T… don’T be surprised… is a Rocket Engineering machine! 

Soooo…..

You get single engine simplicity, turbine reliability, and a path known to a few Mooniacs that are still around here for conversations…

Congrats, Seth, to graduating to the next level!

Just remember… You are still an MSer for life!

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Side conversation…

Seth has a bunch of Brand Ci experience….

Have you looked into the Cirrus Jet at all?  (Just wondering)

It probably doesn’t have what you need…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Seth]

I have looked at the SF50 and have about 30 hours in them. The 135 I used to fly for has 6 now and I was thinking of paying for my own type rating and then asking to dry lease them a few times a year and keep the Mooney, but that’s not in the cards right now - maybe the future. 
 

I have access to SR22’s for now when I need them which makes the group six seat buy possible as when I don’t need six seats and if the six seater is used or down for MX, I can take an SR22.

I do not want to own an SR22 after seeing first hand the amount of maintenance required on less than 5 year old aircraft (under warranty but still!!). I enjoy flying them and they have the best integrated avionics package by far, but I like the way the Mooney flies better (and Bonanza).

 

-Seth

[KLRDMD]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:05 PM, Seth said:

I'm leaning toward an A-36 Bonanza, Saratoga, B-58 Baron or Seneca III. I've ruled out the C414 C340 C210 and Aerostar right now, but that may change. I thought a 414 would be perfect cabin size, ice protection, pressurized, but it'll run way to much per year just on the fixed costs alone.

My first twin was a Seneca III and I highly recommend it as a first twin and for your specific circumstance. The -KB engines in the III may run LOP. Mine did. The -EB engines in the II generally do not run well LOP. I got 165 KTAS on 18 GPH combined. ROP in the II, plan on 20 GPH combined for the same speed. I had over 1,500 lb useful load and the TSIO-360 engines aren't bad to run if you run them right. I also have owned two Barons but both were B55s. And I've owned two Bonanzas but they were/are BE35s. I have BE36 time and P210 time (as well as P337 time, owned two).

You might want to look into a P337 too. You'll get the pressurization you want without ridiculous training requirements and at a reasonable purchase price and insurance rate. The airstair door is very nice and it has five seats, about 1,400 lb useful load and I got 183 KTAS on 23 GPH combined. I still vote Seneca III but the P337 checks some boxes the Seneca doesn't.

[rickseeman]

If the Malibu useful load is enough, then Malibu is you. If not, 58 Baron will do. But don't use words like Seneca or Saratoga here. Vulgarity will not be tolerated.

[PMcClure]

On 1/31/2023 at 5:10 PM, exM20K said:

@Seth congrats on completing a hat trick of kids.  Before abandoning the Mooney, you might consider exactly how many full-family trips you will make as the kids grow up in the next few years.  With our 2, once they were into middle school, the activities started to collide with our travel plans- think travel sports, gymnastics, ballet etc.  we found it impossible to make the quick trips that we used to when they were younger.  We wound up with one or two big trips a year, usually in the RV. 

 

I went through this exercise as well and ended up buying a B36 Bonanza. I think we all flew in it maybe 3 times. After 2 years, I added it up and 98% of flying time was less than 3 people and +80% was just me. Sold the Bo and bought the Ovation. Everyone complained, but I was happy and now It is just me and my wife at home and we fly to see the kids or parents. Of fly to vacations and let the kids take commercial . I still toy with the idea of getting a single turbo prop, but the mooney is such a great traveling machine for 2 people. 

 

[aviatoreb]

I’m sad your missile is moving on.

Seneca is a bit boring and a bit blah to fly but heck it’s an airplane so it’s awesome.  Reasonable cost good seating and great carrying load.  Fits your load and space requirement and can be fiki.

seneca

Edited February 8, 2023 by aviatoreb

[Hank]

Whoever gets Seth's Missike will be a very happy camper! 305 hp, 4-blade prop . . . . I can't imagine what the climb rate is.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, Hank said:

Whoever gets Seth's Missike will be a very happy camper! 305 hp, 4-blade prop . . . . I can't imagine what the climb rate is.

I believe Missiles are 300 HP. Rockets are 305 HP (and turbocharged).

[Seth]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I’m sad your missile is moving on.

Seneca is a bit boring and a bit blah to fly but heck it’s an airplane so it’s awesome.  Reasonable cost good seating and great carrying load.  Fits your load and space requirement and can be fiki.

seneca

Thanks Erik! It's going to be a very bittersweet moment when I do sign it over to the new owner.

[Seth]

40 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I believe Missiles are 300 HP. Rockets are 305 HP (and turbocharged).

That is correct. 300HP. And thank you Hank! I owe you a phone call. The Missile has some very impressive climb rates, especially when lightly loaded but still well when at max gross. I often climb at 120 knots to assist with cooling.

-Seth

[carusoam]

IO550…

300hp..

MT four blade…

Kind of a mechanical engineering dream…

Wondering what that proposed phone call could be about….

Things in the mind of a PP during the early hours…

-a-

Edited February 8, 2023 by carusoam

[Z W]

I have sort of the same problem.  Two boys ages 12 and 7 now pushing the useful load and cubic feet limits of the Mooney.  Just booked a trip via United as a result, can't get all 4 of us plus ski gear in the plane.  Could ship it ahead via UPS, or just buy a ticket and let the airlines handle all the hassle.  Went with option 2 this time.

Jumping backwards into a big older piston twin doesn't have a lot of appeal just to do those one or two trips per year.  Jumping upwards into something burning Jet-A sounds great, but the costs are huge, especially for the small amount I get to fly.  Work and life are very busy right now and we just aren't traveling much, even with a plane sitting there available.  Time is the issue more than money, oddly enough.  Oldest can't miss robotics tournaments, happening every weekend all fall and winter, which has had a big impact.

Last year I was getting pretty serious about just adding a piston twin to the fleet for a few years while keeping the Mooney.  Still might, and maybe that's an option for you.  Plan would be to sell it after the oldest leaves the house, and still have the Mooney which is the perfect 2-3 person traveling machine.  Or keep the twin, I guess, if it ends up being preferred.  Requires another (or a larger) hangar.  Should still be significantly less money than anything burning Jet-A.  Main thing holding me back is actually the idea of how I would find the time to fly two planes and stay current in them.

[aviatoreb]

I had the same problem - but I procrastinated so long in doing something about it - we grew out of the problem.  When I got into flying in 2007 and the Mooney in 2010 our 3 boys were young - do the arithmetic but today they are 21, 24, and 26.  So I kept thinking about yeah, a Seneca or something like that.  But whenever we traveled as a whole family it took the minivan and then some - a big box on top full of junk (toys) bike racks on the back etc.  I was like heck - to pack that much stuff in an airplane I would need a Pilatus.  Which I couldn't afford.  But I kept browsing Controller and thinking well maybe a Seneca for the sorter less heavy trips.  Meanwhile I ended up doing a lot of trips with my boys - one on one trips to their own individual interests.  One loved fishing.  One lived history aka civil war sites.  One love aeronautical engineering so well obviously we went to airplane stuff.  And all three have been pursuing careers in those areas.  The mooney was a great dad and individual son time machine as it turned out and when we needed to all go as a family, I sucked it up and we drove.  I kept thinking about something bigger, and then what do you know - next thing the kids started going to college and the Mooney became a fantastic pick-em up for a weekend break machine.  Move in day at the beginning or end of the year - always by minivan but come home for the weekend, always Mooney.  Now they are all really more grown and we visit them, my wife and I ... in a perfect fast machine built for two old folk like us....well not THAT old but our twenty somethings think we are old.  So procrastinating ended up being a strategy.

[ilovecornfields]

Father/son Time Machine is the perfect use for an airplane! We used to do that once a month before things got crazy but just starting up again. Planning a trip to Sedona right now.
 

I have fond memories of flying across the country with my dad in his Arrow (and not so fond memories of almost clipping the trees at Williams, AZ,  flying through a squall line and having a partial engine failure on departure in Lubbock, TX).