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Moonies just can't be beat!


Austintatious

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For reasons too long to go into... My partner (in 2 Rockets) and I have been talking about a possible upgrade... We would REALLY like to be doing 250knots or more.

We were looking at a Lancair propjet and frothing at the mouth.  Our dream was quickly shattered when we were quoted 40k a year in insurance premiums.  The Piston Lancair 4s are in a similar but not as crazy position with insurance being in the 18-24k a year range.  The propjet was within our budget both to purchase and to operate, until we considered the insurance.

We then started thinking about a different route altogether.  That being a sort of side grade to a 2 place SEL, like a Lancair 320 or Glassair III.   These still have insurance issues but It would be possible for us to own one outright and avoid that mess.  But these aircraft are only slightly faster than the mooney and are much smaller and we are still talking experimental.

 Most any twin will be slower, and the ones that are faster are double or more the operating cost per mile.  There are no Certified 4 place Piston singles that I can find which are faster than the Rocket, other than newer moonies.  A Certified single with a turbine engine instantly puts you around 1.2 million dollars to get into a Meridian  and the operating cost are nuts and they aren't really THAT much faster, though they do carry 6 people.

So, I am still considering a side grade to a Glassair III... but dang if this whole idea of changing has not made me really really appreciate what I already have.

 

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2 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

For reasons too long to go into... My partner (in 2 Rockets) and I have been talking about a possible upgrade... We would REALLY like to be doing 250knots or more.

We were looking at a Lancair propjet and frothing at the mouth.  Our dream was quickly shattered when we were quoted 40k a year in insurance premiums.  The Piston Lancair 4s are in a similar but not as crazy position with insurance being in the 18-24k a year range.  The propjet was within our budget both to purchase and to operate, until we considered the insurance.

We then started thinking about a different route altogether.  That being a sort of side grade to a 2 place SEL, like a Lancair 320 or Glassair III.   These still have insurance issues but It would be possible for us to own one outright and avoid that mess.  But these aircraft are only slightly faster than the mooney and are much smaller and we are still talking experimental.

 Most any twin will be slower, and the ones that are faster are double or more the operating cost per mile.  There are no Certified 4 place Piston singles that I can find which are faster than the Rocket, other than newer moonies.  A Certified single with a turbine engine instantly puts you around 1.2 million dollars to get into a Meridian  and the operating cost are nuts and they aren't really THAT much faster, though they do carry 6 people.

So, I am still considering a side grade to a Glassair III... but dang if this whole idea of changing has not made me really really appreciate what I already have.

 

I should say so! With that Rocket you have pretty much tapped out the speed of a piston airplane that is remotely affordable. Go Rocket and if you are ever near Ennis Texas take me for a ride!:D

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On 1/24/2023 at 5:38 PM, Austintatious said:

For reasons too long to go into... My partner (in 2 Rockets) and I have been talking about a possible upgrade... We would REALLY like to be doing 250knots or more.

We were looking at a Lancair propjet and frothing at the mouth.  Our dream was quickly shattered when we were quoted 40k a year in insurance premiums.  The Piston Lancair 4s are in a similar but not as crazy position with insurance being in the 18-24k a year range.  The propjet was within our budget both to purchase and to operate, until we considered the insurance.

We then started thinking about a different route altogether.  That being a sort of side grade to a 2 place SEL, like a Lancair 320 or Glassair III.   These still have insurance issues but It would be possible for us to own one outright and avoid that mess.  But these aircraft are only slightly faster than the mooney and are much smaller and we are still talking experimental.

 Most any twin will be slower, and the ones that are faster are double or more the operating cost per mile.  There are no Certified 4 place Piston singles that I can find which are faster than the Rocket, other than newer moonies.  A Certified single with a turbine engine instantly puts you around 1.2 million dollars to get into a Meridian  and the operating cost are nuts and they aren't really THAT much faster, though they do carry 6 people.

So, I am still considering a side grade to a Glassair III... but dang if this whole idea of changing has not made me really really appreciate what I already have.

 

I went through the same journey, bought and sold a bunch of mooney’s trying to find something else.  My challenge with the lancair is I didn’t build it, and I don’t want to build one. Every one  I looked at was some measure of unfinished and it sounds trivial until you look at one in person, it’s not a comforting feeling. I wouldn’t even consider one without several hundred hours. 
I was also on the verge again recently of considering a single engine turboprop when I spoke to a friend getting his tbm out of a 160k annual. Just mandatory timed out items, and inspections. Ouch…. Then recurrent training of 6-8k a year, on top of insurance, extra charges at fbo’s etc. 
I ended up with an Aerostar.  I went with the 601p vs the 700 for maintenance costs, and given what had been done before I bought it, and  what I’ve put into it, annuals should be manageable.  Insurance was slightly more than the Mooney, purchase price was very reasonable. It is at least double the cost to own than the Mooney though. and I spent more than the purchase price in avionics, but engines are fresh, new paint, and good interior,  useful load is a real four person airplane with fuel.  
The only quieter twin piston I’ve been in was a Navajo, and It is the only piston twin that’s faster than the Mooney, and believe it or not, it flys like a Mooney. 

 

 

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Aerostar. Just don't plan on operating out of short fields, and prepare to put your maintenance technician's kids through college.

Purchase price for some of the turbine twins is low, but if you're being honest with yourself, the total cost of ownership is going to be a big multiple of the Mooney TCO.

-dan

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Just now, exM20K said:

Aerostar. Just don't plan on operating out of short fields, and prepare to put your maintenance technician's kids through college.

Purchase price for some of the turbine twins is low, but if you're being honest with yourself, the total cost of ownership is going to be a big multiple of the Mooney TCO.

-dan

I’ve done my homework, I know what I’m getting into. 
An Aerostar isn’t cheap to get into proper condition,  but hangar talk is the same as everything else, when people repeat what they hear from people who heard.

I’m under no delusion that it is going to be as cheap as a Mooney. 
But it is absolutely going to be cheaper than a single turbine to own and operate. 

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2 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I’ve done my homework, I know what I’m getting into. 
An Aerostar isn’t cheap to get into proper condition,  but hangar talk is the same as everything else, when people repeat what they hear from people who heard.

I’m under no delusion that it is going to be as cheap as a Mooney. 
But it is absolutely going to be cheaper than a single turbine to own and operate. 

Oh, and plan on keeping a Mooney as well, thought i could live without but I can’t..

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There was an A* flying a similar route 2000 higher than me today.  He was a solid 20 knots faster than me (10%), though I dunno what sort of power setting he was using.  https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N702EL
 

Having convenient specialists to maintain these legacy twins is probably the difference between a good experience and bad.  Being a hands on kind of owner, if you have the skills, is also a good thing.  I wandered into the pressurized twin Cessna cult recently, spent some money evaluating a plane, and elected to stay with the devil I know.  
 

Enjoy the A*.  They are awesome.

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9 hours ago, exM20K said:

There was an A* flying a similar route 2000 higher than me today.  He was a solid 20 knots faster than me (10%), though I dunno what sort of power setting he was using.  https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N702EL
 

Having convenient specialists to maintain these legacy twins is probably the difference between a good experience and bad.  Being a hands on kind of owner, if you have the skills, is also a good thing.  I wandered into the pressurized twin Cessna cult recently, spent some money evaluating a plane, and elected to stay with the devil I know.  
 

Enjoy the A*.  They are awesome.

There are a few very well known Aerostar shops in the country. 
one of them is 10 min from me. 
I looked at probably 50 aerostars over three years. 
30 or so in person, two prebuys that I walked.  
They are very unique planes, the learning curve is steep, and has burned a lot of buyers. The 700 is a LOT faster, but the 601p is also faster, just not as much. 
Going faster is always nicer, I just couldn’t see spending more and going slower. 
I really just wanted to carry my family, and make it quieter, and go no slower. 
 

That being said, there is no better value for what you get than a Mooney. Period. 
Wish me luck!

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59 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Aerostar. Just don't plan on operating out of short fields, and prepare to put your maintenance technician's kids through college.

Purchase price for some of the turbine twins is low, but if you're being honest with yourself, the total cost of ownership is going to be a big multiple of the Mooney TCO.

-dan

I thought about Aerostars for a while, but they don't fit in my hangar and my insurance guy said I really didn't want to do that, so I lost interest.   The more I've thought about light twins the more I've come to the conclusion that I like my Mooney.   I have hangar neighbors with Bonanzas, including a gorgeous A36 right next to me, and as much as I like those I think I still prefer my Mooney for bang for the buck.

That said, I'm starting to lean more toward building an RV-14.   Most of the downside of keeping my Mooney going has to do with it being more than forty years old.   :(

 

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4 hours ago, Schllc said:

I went through the same journey, bought and sold a bunch of mooney’s trying to find something else.  My challenge with the lab air is I didn’t build it, and I don’t want to build one. Everyone I looked at was some measure of unfinished and it sounds trivial until you look at one in person, it’s not a comforting feeling. I wouldn’t even consider one without several hundred hours. 
I was also on the verge again recently of considering a single engine turboprop when I spoke to a friend getting his tbm out of a 160k annual. Just mandatory timed out items, and inspections. Ouch…. Then recurrent training of 6-8k a year, on top of insurance, extra charges at fbo’s etc. 
I ended up with an Aerostar.  I went with the 601p vs the 700 for maintenance costs, and given what had been done before I bought it, and  what I’ve put into it, annuals should be manageable.  Insurance was slightly more than the Mooney, purchase price was very reasonable. It is at least double the cost to own than the Mooney though. and I spent more than the purchase price in avionics, but engines are fresh, new paint, and good interior,  useful load is a real four person airplane with fuel.  
The only quieter twin piston I’ve been in was a Navajo, and It is the only piston twin that’s faster than the Mooney, and believe it or not, it flys like a Mooney. 

 

 

Nice, My stepfather owned a Machen(sp?) 700 and I flew it quite a bit... really nice airplane.  IIRC we did about 232 knots on 44 GPH, that was pulled back of course.

I do not plan on doing any sort of personal flying that would necessitate a twin for safety. 

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2 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I think a Piper PA46 prop jet conversion is what you are looking for.   I think sometimes they are down in the 750k range.  

Nope, not at all... I was in a crash in one about 13 years ago.  Still have a bad taste in my mouth.  Besides, it is not really that much faster than the Rocket nor does it have much more range...  Dont get me wrong, it is faster and has more range, but at a staggering increase in cost.

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I always liked the Aerostar ever since watching Jimmy Franklin's Zar routine.

ZAR.jpg.cf70bf95a8054eee3df1bcf33b123b5a.jpg

And the really cool thing is that as soon as you slip into the left seat, you instantly look like Tom Cruise in American Made.

American Made - Rotten Tomatoes

But, you need the Randolph Engineering sunglasses (randolphusa.com)

Tom Cruise's Sunglasses from American Made

Edited by PT20J
Fixed ZAR image
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Flying for Angel Flight, I have put a 295 pounder in my back seat (and his wife in front with me), a collapsible wheelchair in the back, and 6’ 4” people in the co-pilot seat. There are a couple of Ci owners in our local wing. The three of us can take what are two or three leg flights for other aircraft because of speed and range. I have made a number of AF flights to and from MT, OH, etc. The insurance is not a killer. I can even put a patient on supplemental O2 if needed, although I only have done it once, and that was not the patient. I, also, would like to fly higher and faster but I just can’t seem to beat the mission flexibility of my nearly 40 year old aircraft.

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I think I've looked at about every plane out there in the quest for speed and range. There are "brick walls" out there that if you try to go faster, the cost goes up by a ridiculous amount. I usually travel alone and don't mind oxygen so I can fly anything. I used to have an A56 Baron. 760 horsepower, 247kt max cruise, 50 GPH with about the most expensive engines to operate. After my decades of owning/shopping I say the 237kt Mooney Acclaim is the King of speed/range/affordability/reasonable operating costs. An A56 or a modified Aerostar might be 10 knots faster but less range and definitely not worth the hassle to me for 10 kts.

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Yup. And there is the constant joke that the purpose of the second engine is to fly you to the crash site. Decades ago I spent time in a C-55 Baron. It was a cool airplane, and fast. But gas (for autos) was still in the cents per gallon range, probably 0.39 cents. 50 GPH because of two engines makes me shudder. 

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17 hours ago, Schllc said:

I’ve done my homework, I know what I’m getting into. 
An Aerostar isn’t cheap to get into proper condition,  but hangar talk is the same as everything else, when people repeat what they hear from people who heard.

I’m under no delusion that it is going to be as cheap as a Mooney. 
But it is absolutely going to be cheaper than a single turbine to own and operate. 

…..and you get redundancy.

 

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4 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

I switched to a Glasair III. Absolutely faster than the rocket, cheaper to own and operate, and more efficient. 
 

no turbo and it isn’t needed. Can be easily added if you want it. Because, experimental. 

Can you give some first had info on how the cabins compare?   Or any other thing you can?

 

ALso, did you see the Glassair 3 they flew to 33,000 feet ?   https://glasair-owners.com/glasair/flying-glasair/glasair-super-iii/

 

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